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Thread: analyze my progression?

  1. #31
    Registered User fortymile's Avatar
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    i disagree...

    1: the ear feels a sense of rest on the note C which is in the bass, and which is returned to over and over. part of the riff, like i said, hits Eb and C over and over again, strengthening the sense that the tonality is C minor. The bassline walks through other notes of a c minor scale. so why make it complicated?

    2: no way is there a shift from the tonality in the verse to the tonality in the prechorus. it's just a different riff. your ear comes to rest at exactly the same note: C.

    3: i need to check back over what everyone's else said, but what about the possibility that the chorus is a simple shift to the key of C major? A maj could be functioning, like skantza says, as a secondary dominant to d minor, which is the very next chord. part of me wants to say the final chord, that c major, is the chord that feels most at rest. the first chord, the A major, clearly has a sense of forward motion to it--it does not feel at rest. that 3rd in the bass is pulling it toward d minor, the following chord. *actually,* the secondary dominant A major almost makes the D minor feel like the most 'at rest' chord in that chorus progression.

    Chorus can be explained as:Amaj is the dominant of the II(Dm in C tonal center).
    Dm is the II chord(borrowed from C melodic minor).Fm is the iv and Gmaj is the V chord.
    I think the Tonality is clearly C minor.Try soloing this exotika:C,D,Eb,F#,G,Ab,B,on pro-chorus.
    "All bad poetry is sincere" -- Oscar Wilde

  2. #32
    Registered User SkinnyDevil's Avatar
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    i disagree...
    1: the ear feels a sense of rest on the note C ...your ear comes to rest at exactly the same note: C....
    What was it you said? I think it was "theory: art or science?". Yeah, that was it. I really like that, man.

    I had 3 students from India who grew up on Indian Classical music. When they started learning guitar (in one of my group classes) we were discussing key. I used the same terminology you use above to explain a song we were playing in C. They looked funny at each other and then one of them said it was clearly in F. They all agreed.

    Extreme example, I know. They were steeped in a wholy different cultural heritage and so are attuned to a different drum, so to speak. While many of us here share the same basic cultural heritage, it is easily conveivable that som ehear it in C and some hear it in F and all are correct.

    Either that or I am right and it's still F minor (hahahaha!!!!!).
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  3. #33
    Registered User fortymile's Avatar
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    well, i still dont get the F thing. wish i could, so i could at least accept or argue it.
    "All bad poetry is sincere" -- Oscar Wilde

  4. #34
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    i like the A major in your chorus

    Verse: C min, G, bA, F

    PreChorus: Cmin, bE, D

    Chorus: Amaj, D min, Fmin, Gmaj

    try this for justifying these borrowed chords

    Bb - g min
    Eb - c min
    Ab - f min

    c min is your chosen key center, you can borrow chords
    a fifth above and below your chosen key center I - VII

    in your progression
    in the chorus A maj is the raised VI of c minor
    D min is II of c minor
    F min is IV of c minor
    G maj is V of c minor

    in minor you have a lot of choices
    in c minor raised VI is (a c eb) but your using it as a secondary dominant

  5. #35
    Registered User fortymile's Avatar
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    i think i see what you mean. in that last part there, what you are saying is some of these chords fall on the right degree but are altered from what they would normally be...like to say Dmin is the II of Cmin, i mean, to be purely within the nat minor scale, that D would have to be D diminished. but there are other minor scales where the second chord is just plain minor, and when working with minor scales, you can borrow from all of these scales. yes?

    dont see what you mean by 'raised VI' of C minor, though, and am not quite sure what you're saying overall...
    "All bad poetry is sincere" -- Oscar Wilde

  6. #36
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    you got it

    in the minor mode there are two choices
    for each roman numeral degree

    because minor is based on two scales
    the natural minor C D Eb F G Ab Bb C unraised
    and the melodic minor C D Eb F G A B C raised
    c minor

    I
    C Eb G

    II
    D F Ab unraised
    D F A raised

    III
    Eb G Bb un raised
    Eb G B raised

    IV
    F Ab C
    F A C

    V
    G Bb D
    G B D

    VI
    A C Eb
    A C E You changed this to a secondary dominant that's all
    which A C#E can become the V of d min
    and you sliped back to G the V of c min
    i liked what you did
    VII
    Bb D F
    B D F

    for a overview check out theory of harmony by Arnold
    Schoenberg
    chapter on minor mode

  7. #37
    You should not that two chords dont have to share a key for the mto sound great in an actually progression. If its a melody you're after, this is one of those things where you're goingt to have to either write something in your head OR take each of their triads/arpegios and construct a melody from there.

    If you want to understand what you did so that you can write like it again, this is a bad idea, which would cause your compositions to sound alike which is bad.

    Just my opinion...

  8. #38
    Registered User fortymile's Avatar
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    well, i want to understand what i did so that i get better at writing interesting chord progressions. not necessarily to keep exploring the same one. although, i should mention. there are a lot of albums out there that are that are actually *unified* by overreliance on a particular scale. witness: the band muse, or the any of the chili peppers albums from about the past five years. with muse, i can feel that the harmonic minor scale is being exploited in some way in nearly every song. with the peppers, kiedis seems to have found a few scales he's using exclusively for melodies.

    do i think these two examples are good? no. muse maybe a little bit, but it gets old. the peppers just bore me now, though i like what they represent.

    danzig uses the blues scale almost exlcusively for his vocal melodies. and i do not think that his songs sound the same at all. dare i say they're pretty great examples of songwriting?

    consider the nine inch nails album the downward spiral, which is based largely around a single motif. those songs do not sound the same.

    basically, i dont think that adding to my knowledge constitutes a threat. i guess what pulls me along through theory now is 1. basic curiosity about music 2. feeling like i should use my hard-won ability to finally comprehend theory after 10 years of being completely in the dark about it.

    i want to get more out of schoenberg. i guess i need to understand figured bass first. i need to understand his language before i attempt another book of his. and possibly work on my sight reading so i can follow his examples quickly.

    im confused, though, arnold. you mention only two scales for the minor mode. a few of the songwriting books i own say that youre not limited to that, that you can and should use chords from dorian and phrygian too.
    "All bad poetry is sincere" -- Oscar Wilde

  9. #39
    Registered User Mateo150's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkinnyDevil
    What was it you said? I think it was "theory: art or science?". Yeah, that was it. I really like that, man.

    I had 3 students from India who grew up on Indian Classical music. When they started learning guitar (in one of my group classes) we were discussing key. I used the same terminology you use above to explain a song we were playing in C. They looked funny at each other and then one of them said it was clearly in F. They all agreed.
    hey now, I threw that out before, (differnet races are tuned differently) then I read your "teaching key thread" and you kinda laughed at the idea. You jumping on board now? Anyway, a question for my curiosity, how did those Indians analyze the rest of the music? Did it "work" in terms of being organized into a working system with valid and pragmatic connections between placeholder units?

    sorry for being off topic, but this sort of thing really interests me.
    They call them fingers, but I never see them fing.

  10. #40
    Registered User SkinnyDevil's Avatar
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    I threw that out before, (different races are tuned differently) then I read your "teaching key thread" and you kinda laughed at the idea. You jumping on board now?
    You mean when I asked about how to teach the concept of key to beginners and said "...one can answer by talking about a family of chords or by pointing to the staff or whatnot, or even waxing philosophic and explaining that it's really an ambiguous thing based on being steeped in a given cultural heritage..."?

    Sorry for the confusion - I wasn't laughing the idea off at all, just pointing out that none of those methods of explanation (or maybe it's just my presentation) seem to work with a high degree of success. Like you, Mateo, I find that sort of thing extremely interesting, but most of my students get "that look" when I go into that territory, so I try to keep it at a minimum.

    ...how did those Indians analyze the rest of the music? Did it "work" in terms of being organized into a working system with valid and pragmatic connections between placeholder units?
    Unfortunately, I'll never know. I got them started in an 8 week class with a couple of melodies, the C major scale, basic chords...and then they graduated, got jobs, and moved away. One of them was getting pretty good playing "The Lion Sleeps Tonight", though...
    --
    David M. McLean
    Skinny Devil Music Lab
    Hidden Content

    "...embrace your fear..."

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