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Thread: Question Dorian b2 , good on Min 7th chord ??

  1. #1
    Registered User Sir Speedy's Avatar
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    Question Dorian b2 , good on Min 7th chord ??

    Hey there ,

    i have a question that need's answering , in regards to the Dorian b2 , the II of Melodic Minor .( 1 b2 b3 4 5 6 b7 b9 11 13 ) The second degree of Mel Minor is , mi 7 .

    i think it works good over Minor 7 , but i don't see any body talking about it , in any method books . im hearing "use Dorian or aeolean "

    Does anybody like this mode ??
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    Last edited by Sir Speedy; 09-15-2011 at 08:22 AM.

  2. #2
    Jazz Apprentice Factor's Avatar
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    I think the Dorian b2 which you are referring to, is more often called Phrygian b6, because the b2 seems to be the defining scale degree of Phrygian. Because of that b2 you hear the scale as a "phrygian" scale. That's just names though.

    The "1 b2 b3 4 5 6 7" scale could be used over minor 7'th chords as you said. I haven't really tried it out, as I haven't got to the melodic minor modes yet, so I can't really tell from experiance, but I can't see why it shouldn't work. You'd have to be careful over a minor ninth chord though, as the ninths over minor chords are usually a major ninth, not a minor ninth.

    And playing a m9 chord instead of an m7 chord is such a common substitution that I don't think I would be playing the b9. (Unless that was what I wanted of course )

  3. #3
    Registered User Sir Speedy's Avatar
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    Yes , Factor ,


    that helps . i think your right , if you use the b9 spairingly ,it's good .

    Jimi Hendrix used , what seems to be an outline of that scale at the end of
    "Little Miss Lover" (Electric Lady Land)

    Hendrix threw out most of the notes , so it is more of a Pentatonic .
    But it could work on "mi7"
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    Last edited by Sir Speedy; 09-15-2011 at 08:23 AM.

  4. #4
    IbreatheMusic Author ChrisJ's Avatar
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    The mode in question, dorian b2 is used mostly over a sus(b9) chord. At first it may strike you as strange because theoretically it is a minor mode but as the chord is a sus chord and there is no 3rd present, the mode sounds great. Phrgian also gets used over this chord a lot. Try the chord and play the scale and you'll understand (for an A dorian b2):
    Asus(b9) = 6th string - A, 4th - Bb, 3rd - D, 2nd - E, 1st - A

    Factor made a small mistake by saying the mode could be named as phrygian b6 because unlike the phrygian mode, the dorian b2 mode has a major 6th present. He is on the right track however as the scale is more phrygian by nature than dorian.

    The perfect chord for the mode would be an 13sus(b9) chord:
    6th - A, 4th - Bb, 3rd - D, 2nd - F#, 1st - A

    -CJ

  5. #5
    Registered User Sir Speedy's Avatar
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    Hmm...


    i was under the impression the second Chord of Mel Minor was , min7 . I guss that may be a bit vauge . But i figure the scale can imply a tonality , over the min 7

    But , i don't know that much about sus(b9) 13

    i do know the Pentatonic scale can out line the Dorian b2 , i'm looking at the b9 ,and 6 as passing notes , that can be thrown in.

    It sounds pritty good , and will sound different , in a rock context , or over a min7th chord .

    So , this sus13(b9) chord, is a substitution for the II chord,that will work in your standard II V I progressions, i take it ?
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    Last edited by Sir Speedy; 09-15-2011 at 08:23 AM.

  6. #6
    IbreatheMusic Author ChrisJ's Avatar
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    You are right in assuming the ii chord in melodic minor is a min7 chord just as the iii chord in major is. Sometimes with the modes, the chords don't always theoretically match the scales. As an example, the seventh chord in melodic minor is theoretically a min7b5 chord but we use it over an altered chord. The same with the phrygian mode, the scale technically suits a min7 chord but, in jazz anyways, gets used over a sus(b9) chord. Same with the dorian b2 mode, it gets used over a 13sus(b9) chord. I've never used it over a ii chord but I don't see why it can't work.
    -CJ

  7. #7
    Registered User Sir Speedy's Avatar
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    That's good , Chris , it's nice to have options .

    yeah, i'm liking the way Super Locrian sounds on E7#9 , especially in combination with G pentatonic/Blues , for the Funk/ Rock stuff .

    What i'm wondering is ;this , 13Sus(b9) , is good with Dorian b2 .

    Does that mean use 13Sus(b9) as a Sub for the IImin7 chord on a Chart .

    or does that mean use it in your writing for stretching out over a couple of mesures ??
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    Last edited by Sir Speedy; 09-15-2011 at 08:23 AM.

  8. #8
    IbreatheMusic Author ChrisJ's Avatar
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    No, the sus(b9) chord doesn't usually function as a ii chord as by harmonic nature it is a dominant chord. It usualy shows up as a one or two measure vamp. If you have a chance, check out Wayne Shorter's "Ana Maria" for a good example.

    I know that it technically is a ii chord but doesn't show up that way. The same with the altered mode (super locrian), the chord it creates is technically a vii chord (as it is built on the seventh degree of the scale) but functions as V chord.
    -CJ
    Last edited by ChrisJ; 01-12-2005 at 05:41 AM.

  9. #9
    chewing bubble gum Chim_Chim's Avatar
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    sus(b9) means 7sus4(b9),i believe?
    Some days I seem to do OK. Other days I feel like just shoving an M-80 right up my guitar's butt.

  10. #10
    Registered User Sir Speedy's Avatar
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    i'm thinking , the Dorian b2 should work over min7b9 , in more of a rock context

    As far as Jazz . i'm thinking the 13sus(b9) should be used as a III chord sub , or in place of a 13 chord .

    i'll have to review my studies of secondary Dominants , and thier helping minors .

    i'll check out the shorter tune , too.

    here are some chord windows.
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    Last edited by Sir Speedy; 09-15-2011 at 08:23 AM.

  11. #11
    IbreatheMusic Author ChrisJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chim_Chim
    sus(b9) means 7sus4(b9),i believe?
    No, although they basically function the same, they are different chords.

    7sus(b9) = 1 4 5 b7 b9

    sus(b9) = 1 4 5 b9

    For the best voicings, look at the article I wrote for IBM:
    http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/166

    -CJ

  12. #12
    iBreatheMusic Modthor phantom's Avatar
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    sus(b9) = 1 4 5 b9
    chris,

    just for instance, you would take the 2 instead of the 4 (also sus)

    1 2 5 b9

    would you call it sus2b9?

  13. #13
    IbreatheMusic Author ChrisJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom
    chris,

    just for instance, you would take the 2 instead of the 4 (also sus)

    1 2 5 b9

    would you call it sus2b9?
    Trick question! 2nds and 9ths are the same so this is a strange chord. I can't think of a scale off the top of my head that has both a natural and flat second. Think about it, the first three notes of the scale would have to be chromatic. But technically the chord could be called a sus2(b9) chord. Wouldn't know what to play over it though.
    -CJ

  14. #14
    iBreatheMusic Modthor phantom's Avatar
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    hmm.. yeah.. that's what i would have guessed.

    hey, what if we leave the root out of the scale!? would be the 5th serving as a stable chord tone be enough? we omitted the 3rd already, so no rest there..

    just thinkin around...

    EDIT: ..... and finally found one - hungarian minor 4rth mode has :

    the root - b9 - 9 - 4 - b5 - b6 - 6 (bb7)

    that would fit a sus2(b9) and/or a sus4(b9)

    what do you think....
    Last edited by phantom; 01-13-2005 at 01:01 PM.

  15. #15
    IbreatheMusic Author ChrisJ's Avatar
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    Your challenging me here. Let me think out loud for a second:

    We have a sus2(b9) chord to play over, as in: Csus2(b9). These are the notes: C D G C#. I don't know what to play and I have three seconds to find something quick. I'll try the old "superimpose a scale" trick. Leave out the root and we get: D G C#. My experience tells me that when I try this trick I usually get a maj7 in my scale (leaving the root from the chord between the 7th and b9th just like when I do the same thing with a B whole tone scale over a Cmin chord. That gives me a B C# D and G. Hmm... looks like a Bmin scale to me. Let's try it: B(7), C#(b9), D(2), E(3), F#(#11), G(5) A(6). Looks cool to me.

    -CJ

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