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Thread: Modes. Why is it so hard?

  1. #301
    Registered User bluesking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chim_Chim View Post
    No you can't make modal music without bothering about modes. Modal music means you use modes. That's the whole point.
    Well, I think we can all agree (I hope) that to make modal music, you absolutely must use modes!

    Sometimes the line between what's modal and whats not is blurred.

    This is modal:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me7P9qqBgwI

    This is not:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny1n5...eature=related

    This is debatable (but lets not debate it anymore, please!!):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B2clFsLA3w
    "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"

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  2. #302
    chewing bubble gum Chim_Chim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking
    I thought that modes were the most important thing in guitar playing, for well over 5 years.

    I was wrong, just as I believe you now are. I have attempted to explain why I think you are wrong, and modes, although a part of what we do, is a very small part (providing we don't exclusively play modal jazz).
    No offense, but you weren't wrong then. You are wrong now.

    Modes predate western harmony (major and minor keys).
    Modal jazz inspired alot of rock and other music to this day.
    Saying modes aren't useful is like saying the major scale isn't useful or the minor key scales aren't useful or learning to play the blues isn't useful.
    It's ****ing ridiciulous.

    No offense.
    Some days I seem to do OK. Other days I feel like just shoving an M-80 right up my guitar's butt.

  3. #303
    chewing bubble gum Chim_Chim's Avatar
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    Not every song is based on the major or minor keys. Not every song is modal. Not every song is a BLUES song.

    But there are songs that are each. So they are all valid.

    Look, just deal with it already. It isn't a matter of opinion.
    Some days I seem to do OK. Other days I feel like just shoving an M-80 right up my guitar's butt.

  4. #304
    Registered User bluesking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chim_Chim View Post
    No offense, but you weren't wrong then. You are wrong now.

    Modes predate western harmony (major and minor keys).
    Modal jazz inspired alot of rock and other music to this day.
    Saying modes aren't useful is like saying the major scale isn't useful or the minor key scales aren't useful or learning to play the blues isn't useful.
    It's ****ing ridiciulous.

    No offense.
    What does history have to do with any of this? Sure, counterpoint was important to classical musicians. It isn't to rock musicians. Modal church music is of no consequency to modal jazz. Any modern modal style is not influenced by modal music of days gone by. It is a reaction to functional harmony.

    As for the rest of what you say, I don't really understand your argument. Why am I so obviously wrong. I have tried desperately to explain why I think I am right.

    Anyway, it hardly matters. What works for you I pressume works for you. I mean, you don't seem to be dissapointed by your own playing, so you must be using a system which suits you. Well done.

    Your system doesn't suit me. I, equally, am not dissapointed by my own playing. Your cry of "It's ****ing ridiciulous" seems a little oppresive. You don't have to agree with me to understand my viewpoint, which you havn't tried to do. I understand your viewpoint, because I used to promote it vigorously.

    I can only imagine that your grasp of functional harmony is pretty weak for you to take such issue with my posts.

    Anyway, there is clearly no point trying to convince each other. I think everything has been regurgitated quite enough (not even including the dozens of other identical threads).
    "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"

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  5. #305
    Registered User bluesking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chim_Chim View Post
    Not every song is based on the major or minor keys. Not every song is modal. Not every song is a BLUES song.

    But there are songs that are each. So they are all valid.

    Look, just deal with it already. It isn't a matter of opinion.
    Why does it have to be so black and white? I would genuinely appreciated a good explanation as to why I am so clearly wrong.
    "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"

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  6. #306
    chewing bubble gum Chim_Chim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking
    Why does it have to be so black and white? I would genuinely appreciated a good explanation as to why I am so clearly wrong.
    Simple.

    Some songs are BLUES, and some songs aren't.

    Some songs are in a major key or a minor key, and not BLUES at all.

    Some songs are Modal and not blues at all, nor are they written in a major or minor key either.

    SONGS are SONGS are SONGS...

    There is no more to say about it.
    Some days I seem to do OK. Other days I feel like just shoving an M-80 right up my guitar's butt.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chim_Chim View Post




    Where do you come up with this bullsh*t?

    i didn't come up with it. that's the fact of the matter.


    you should try re read my posts maybe.

    I'm not disputing the fact sthat modes exist. nor that songs are written in modes and have modal flavours.

    I'm just saying i don't find studying them useful.

    I don't care what the name of a mode is.

    a song can be in mixolydian, or in aeolian, the pattern used for both those modes are the same.

    if you pick the right two ones, the right aeolian and the right mixolydian tune, the notes of those keys are in fact exactly the same.

    I don't care which note is the root.

    yes, i understand that which one is the root affects how the song sounds.

    but i can hear that. the sound of the tune is inspiring my choice of notes, not the theoretical fact that one note i am choosing happens to be some given number of intervals away from the root.

    let's use C major and A minor as examples.

    they are the same notes. in improvising over the tune all i care about is the notes available are ABCDEFG the order and times i choose to play these notes will be different in each different mode. but that part is automatic. my choice is based on which one of the notes i feel like playing at the time. ABCDEF or G. I don't care what degree these notes are in the key, i just care which ones i feel like playing.

    yes. i'll play in all modes if the tune asks for it. but from my perspective i am just playing always the same pattern. it's all the same to me. how i play that same pattern is different. it does depend on which mode i'm in, but i don't need to know which mode i'm in in order for the mode to affect my choice of notes. it just happens. the sound of the chord progression tells me to play what notes I feel like playing, my feel for which notes i want to hear is affected by the chord progression, be it modal or not.

    what the name of the mode is, or why i feel like playing an A when i want to resolve instead of a C doesn't matter to me.

    I just do, and i know how to find the note i want when resolving is what i want to do. no matter what mode i'm in. yes that will at times be a different degree of the pattern, because i'd be in a different mode. but i don't care about that. what matters to me is i feel like hearing a sound and can play that sound.

    but ya, i don't care if a song is blues or if it is in minor or in major.

    there is just one pattern as far as i'm concerned. and yes i use it differently depending on the song i'm playing with. but it's the song that's inspiring me to play it differently, not the cognitive fact or awareness that i'm in some given mode. i just don't care about that part. it's not necessary to me.
    Last edited by fingerpikingood; 10-05-2009 at 07:52 PM.

  8. #308
    chewing bubble gum Chim_Chim's Avatar
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    Major Scale intervals:

    ..1...........2................3..............4... ...............5..............6...............7
    root,major second,major third,perfect fourth,perfect fifth,major sixth,major seventh
    Some days I seem to do OK. Other days I feel like just shoving an M-80 right up my guitar's butt.

  9. #309
    Registered User bluesking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chim_Chim View Post
    Simple.

    Some songs are BLUES, and some songs aren't.

    Some songs are in a major key or a minor key, and not BLUES at all.

    Some songs are Modal and not blues at all, nor are they written in a major or minor key either.

    SONGS are SONGS are SONGS...

    There is no more to say about it.
    Erm, this has been exactly what I have been saying all along.
    "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"

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  10. #310
    chewing bubble gum Chim_Chim's Avatar
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    No bluesking, you have been downplaying the importance of modes. Modes are used for writing songs just like the major scale or the minor key scales are, just like some songs are written as blues songs.

    There's other scales too, ya know.


    It's a fact that modes are used to write songs.

    Songs are songs. Imagine that.
    Last edited by Chim_Chim; 10-05-2009 at 07:49 PM.
    Some days I seem to do OK. Other days I feel like just shoving an M-80 right up my guitar's butt.

  11. #311
    Registered User bluesking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chim_Chim View Post
    No bluesking, you have been downplaying the importance of modes. Modes are used for writing songs just like the major scale or the minor key scales are, just like some songs are written as blues songs.
    Well, I don't think there are that many songs which use modes (outside of modal jazz). I'm not saying there aren't any. Feel free to drop a big list of modal songs. Till then, I can't say I am convinced.
    "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"

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  12. #312
    chewing bubble gum Chim_Chim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking View Post
    Well, I don't think there are that many songs which use modes (outside of modal jazz). I'm not saying there aren't any. Feel free to drop a big list of modal songs. Till then, I can't say I am convinced.
    I've come across alot of songs in alot of different genres that do use modes. However, I didn't make a list of them all over the years. I don't really need to. I can learn them again any time thanks to knowing some basic music theory.

    It's not my job to convince you of something so obvious. It's like you asking me to convince you that blues music exists. Just because the blues is more obvious and more people are exposed to it and have a convenient label to attach to it, doesn't mean that it is any more significant than modal music.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking
    Well, I don't think there are that many songs which use modes (outside of modal jazz).
    Well that's just your ignorance. That's what I'm telling you.
    Last edited by Chim_Chim; 10-05-2009 at 08:01 PM.
    Some days I seem to do OK. Other days I feel like just shoving an M-80 right up my guitar's butt.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking View Post
    Well, I think we can all agree (I hope) that to make modal music, you absolutely must use modes!

    Sometimes the line between what's modal and whats not is blurred.

    This is modal:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me7P9qqBgwI

    This is not:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny1n5...eature=related

    This is debatable (but lets not debate it anymore, please!!):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B2clFsLA3w
    ok well judging from your first 2 links then, modal i don't like , too close to just being noise for me. and non modal i like. so it's no wonder i have no use for modes then. I just never feel like playing those types of sounds. it's not really musical to me.

  14. #314
    Registered User bluesking's Avatar
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    OK then chaps. I think I'm spent on this topic. Sorry if I am not the guitarist I could be in your estimation, but I am happy in myself.
    "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"

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  15. #315
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    interval = distance between two notes. now you can use it terms of distance between two degrees of a scale. which you did for the major scale, and yes, one mode to the other these intervals will be different. the intervals between the degrees will be different.

    but with C major, and A minor you can clearly see the notes used are ABCDEFG, and the intervals between the notes are the same for one mode to the other. since ABCDEFG are notes not degrees.

    when you pull out your 1234567 those are degrees and yes the intervals between degrees of different modes is different.

    it's not rocket science.

    A-B = interval between notes.

    1-2 = interval between degrees.


    yes different songs are written in different modes. this is true. just that songs are written in minor or major keys is proof of that fact.

    but i have always been talking about improvising. actually i personally don't find them important for songwriting either because whatever, i'll just feel like like hearing some given progression and then after that fact i could say hey, look at that, this song is in Mode x. but i don't need to first decide what mode i feel like using before writing the tune.

    but anyways for improvising, i don't care what mode the song is. it doesn't matter to me. i don't find it important.

    i can hear how the song sounds. i know what's the pattern of notes of the key it is in. which one of those notes is the root i don't care about.

    do you see what i mean yet?

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