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Thread: Cycle 4/Cycle 5

  1. #1
    Registered User thesnowinmyhand's Avatar
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    Cycle 4/Cycle 5

    After all these comments I have seen about cycle 4/5 progressions, I wondered about a couple of things. First of all is this cycle thing just an excercise tool or is it used for composing/writing as well? And if that is the case then do you adjust the quality of the chord to match the key you are in or are you cycling keys as well (if that is a possible concept...).
    In other words if I have a cycle 5 progression starting with C:

    Is it C-G-D-A or C-G-Dmin-Amin?

    Or do I miss something completely here? (after all I am only a rock/blues guy who never thought about this before....

    ready for the weekend,

    Robert

  2. #2
    Resident Curmudgeon szulc's Avatar
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    YES

    First of all is this cycle thing just an excercise tool or is it used for composing/writing as well?
    It is both.
    And if that is the case then do you adjust the quality of the chord to match the key you are in or are you cycling keys as well
    You do both depending on the circumstance.
    C-G-Dmin-Amin is a diatonic type cycle meaning within a major scale or particular key.
    C-G-D-A is a non-diatonic meaning the chord quality remains constant and it passes through many keys.
    By the way Cycle 4 is much more common.
    (A D G C)
    "Listen to the Spaces Between the sounds."
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  3. #3
    Registered User thesnowinmyhand's Avatar
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    Thanks for your quick answer,

    I understand the diatonic way of using this, but to the non - diatonic example:

    Could you say anything about what kind of scale to use solo over something like that without playing the actual changes.

    and second is it a common thing in actual musical applications such a non-diatonic cylce 4 progression or only of 'academical' interest?

    thanks again,

    Robert

  4. #4
    Resident Curmudgeon szulc's Avatar
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    Could you say anything about what kind of scale to use solo over something like that without playing the actual changes.
    Sorry Charlie (Robert) you must play the changes! No scale is going to get you through this!
    and second is it a common thing in actual musical applications such a non-diatonic cylce 4 progression or only of 'academical' interest?
    Very common in jazz and standards. ( All of me, etc.....)Did you se my post on motives?
    "Listen to the Spaces Between the sounds."
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  5. #5
    Registered User thesnowinmyhand's Avatar
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    Yes I did, this is wat brought out the questions: I was looking at the patterns you posted, but I think I undestand thanks!
    I also think if i wanna use this type of knowledge it is time to learn how improvise over chord changes....

    grzt

    Robert

  6. #6
    Afro-Cuban Grunge-Pop Bongo Boy's Avatar
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    ...wherein Bongo begins to question his already fragile sanity.

    Thought I'd post this here because it's fairly well related.

    In reviewing my The Complete Guitarist, a book that gives me no end of grief, I'm going over a section of jazz progressions and specifically, a 'standard' II-V-I progression, which you can see is a nice little cycle-4 thing.

    The example is based on C maj. First 4 bars do a II-V-I-IV, which of course is Dm7 G7 CM7 FM7. Second 4 bars start with a II-V-I as well, but based on the relative minor of C maj, A min. Book shows Bm7b5 E7 Am7 A7.

    So I get out my pencil and paper to check this (ignore the A7 for now), and I get that II-V-I in A min should be: Bm7b5 Em7 Am7.

    The book specifically states that the 6th bar is "the V of the relative minor". And the E7 is repeated several times. please take a shot at explaining this to me if you can--I'm pretty pissed right about now--but I'm all ears. My first impression is that someone wants a "V" to be a dom7 so badly that they make the V of a minor scale a dom7 even when it isn't.

    Have I not done my homework? Am I not working hard enough at this crap? Are the guitar gods punishing me for that crack about not liking solos?
    Last edited by Bongo Boy; 12-11-2002 at 01:06 AM.
    Pulsing the System with Confirmed Nonsense.

  7. #7
    Resident Curmudgeon szulc's Avatar
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    The Natural (Aeolian) Minor scale has a minor v chord. The cadence from v to i is WEAK but the cadence from V to i is strong. So some brillant Baroque or pre-Baroque composer came up with a compromise, replace the G in an A minor scale with G# ( which, by the way, gives a strong leading tone, as well) and now you have the strong V to i cadence, someone then coined the term 'Harmonic Minor' because the V to i cadence was strengthened.

    Now in a similar fashion, the Dorian Minor has a WEAK v to i cadence, so we perform the same trick make C a C# and now the cadence becomes V to i which once again is strengthened, this is the scale we all know and love as the 'Melodic Minor' technically the Ascending Melodic Minor, more commonly referred to today as the 'Jazz Minor'
    "Listen to the Spaces Between the sounds."
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  8. #8
    Afro-Cuban Grunge-Pop Bongo Boy's Avatar
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    This is what rankles my butt...the author simply wanted to display a 'standard jazz sequence' without getting into the whys and wherefores. But there are two issues I have with this: first, he does a good job of explaining the natural, harmonic and melodic minors elsewhere in the book (earlier in the book, in fact). So, he COULD have taken the time to say something like you just did. Second, (in my opinion) he makes a blatantly incorrect statement: E7 is NOT the V of the relative minor.

    Okay, so it could be a typo. In any case, when we refer to the jazz minor, is this a case where ascending and descending are identical? I think I've picked up that it is now mostly in classical only where ascending/descending are distinguished--is that what you've found also?
    Pulsing the System with Confirmed Nonsense.

  9. #9
    Resident Curmudgeon szulc's Avatar
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    E7 is th V7 of A Minor Harmonic and Em7 is the v7 of A Natural minor, I don't think his statement is technically incorrect.

    It is entirely possible that the author of your book is not aware of the origins of the Harmonic Minor scale, many people aren't.

    The Jazz minor is the same up and down. The traditional Melodic minor is different up and down.

    Chill, just breathe the music.
    "Listen to the Spaces Between the sounds."
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  10. #10
    Afro-Cuban Grunge-Pop Bongo Boy's Avatar
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    Ah! I think I've just learned something--sorry, it was an accident. The author used V and relative minor, so I assumed he wasn't using case sensitive notation to mean major/minor degrees. In ANY case, it doesn't matter--I understand what you're saying.

    Originally posted by szulc
    Chill, just breathe the music.
    I hesitate to--I'm in Burbank right now.

    However, in about 2 hours I expect to be sitting in a club listening to John Pisano and other great musicians, enjoying a delightful beverage, and chillin'.
    Pulsing the System with Confirmed Nonsense.

  11. #11
    just some dude nateman's Avatar
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    Bongo Boy- are you capitalizing everything the same way it is in the book? i.e., is it possible they said "ii-V-I-IV" in Cmaj and "ii-V-i" in Amin? if so, that could have been their way of indicating they wanted a E7 rather than an Em7 (by using a capital V instead of a lower-case v). if not...then they probably just thought it would be obvious.

  12. #12
    just some dude nateman's Avatar
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    once again, i may be a little behind the times.

  13. #13
    Resident Curmudgeon szulc's Avatar
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    Nateman,
    You live in the same town where they make Warmoth guitar parts!

    Cool!
    "Listen to the Spaces Between the sounds."
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  14. #14
    just some dude nateman's Avatar
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    is that in puyallup? i knew it was somewhere in this area. Bizarro bought a Warmoth neck for the guitar he is building, and he was ticked off because they won't let you pick stuff up directly from the factory. even though it's practically right around the corner, i think he had to get it shipped to him.

    either way, i am more than happy to bask in their coolness.

  15. #15
    Resident Curmudgeon szulc's Avatar
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    I have three Warmoth Strats.
    They are great.
    "Listen to the Spaces Between the sounds."
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