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Thread: Chord progressions in Lydian Mode

  1. #16
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    Interesting thread. I am going to explore the mentioned chord progressions. The recordings of John Jumper was nice. Great backings.

  2. #17
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    LYDIAN mode

    Today I Realized That A Cool Way To Keep And Resolve F In The Lydian Mode Is To Make The C Chord Augmented Which Is Like An Altered V In F Lydian

    C Augmented Is Borrowed From A Minor Relative Of C Major

  3. #18
    JazzNerd gersdal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arnold
    Today I Realized That A Cool Way To Keep And Resolve F In The Lydian Mode Is To Make The C Chord Augmented Which Is Like An Altered V In F Lydian

    C Augmented Is Borrowed From A Minor Relative Of C Major
    Hmmm, but it would not be strictly in Lydian mode, would it?

  4. #19
    JazzNerd gersdal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arnold
    if you are into lydian you should check out the work of
    george russell, from the new england consertatory
    i think his book is simple entitled the lydian mode

    it is his belief that the lydian mode is really the center
    of tonality, meaning that the #4 is correct rather than
    the perfect 4th that occurs in the ionian mode .... and that
    we have been wrong for centuries.... the theory is very far out
    there but listening to his music sometimes makes you think that he could be right

    and i would argree that it is hard to resolve and stay in lydian
    but listening to russell vast repretoire you can get a feel for it

    hope you check him out or just listen to hin compositions

    arnold
    Thanks Arnold. I'm aware of George Russell's work, allthough I havn't read his famous book. Hope to get my hands on a copy in the future. Quite a few norwegian jazz musicians devoted themself to the work of Russell in the late 60ties and early 70ties (amoung others the saxofonist Jan Garbarek). I'm familiar with a lot of their work. I also heard a few of Russell's own recordings. In order to get further in my quest for creating chord progressions in lydian mode that is longer than a vamp, I'm sure a more thorough investigation into these artist would be great. Thanks again for your advise.

  5. #20
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    lYDIAN mode

    Quote Originally Posted by gersdal
    Hmmm, but it would not be strictly in Lydian mode, would it?

    right it would not be purely in the lydian mode.....
    but this augmented chord helps to resolve back to lydian
    which is the objective

    one of george russell lydian scale concepts
    is to alter lydian with a + 5

    like Bb lydian + ( Bb C D E F# G A Bb)
    just think that the real key you are in is F major is actually
    sharped

    Bb lydian diminished
    (Bb C Db E F G A Bb ) this one is harder to work

    i dont really agree with george russell concepts
    but some of his many altered lydian scales add alot of color

  6. #21
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    Lydian Stuff

    This is an interesting subject.

    If you want to gain a better understanding of the very underpinnings of harmony check out this excellent book: Harmonic Experience by W. A. Mathieu, published by Inner Traditions International. (Among his endorsements is praise from Terry Riley and John Coltrane)

    One thing he illustrates is the use of the drone. So, when your playing a set of changes from the lydian mode, staying true to the diatonic tones, try playing C, or C & G, in the left hand (on keyboards) and the triads in the right hand.

    This will help develop a feel for the mode. And it works with any mode or scale.

    Another great source for understanding the lydian mode, besides Mr. Russels "Lydian Chromatic System" is to study the music from the musical called "West Side Story" which was composed almost entirely in the lydian mode.

  7. #22
    IbreatheMusic Author ChrisJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamsa
    study the music from the musical called "West Side Story" which was composed almost entirely in the lydian mode.
    ???????!!!???!!!???

  8. #23
    Registered User ragasaraswati's Avatar
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    You will say 'are you out of your mind?!" after my response but add a IV chord there. So play I - II - IV.

    I guess you could also have a progression of 3+ chords and still manage a lydian tonic gravitation by giving the fifth only to the lydian tonic chord while in other chords have all sorts of extensions without voicing their fifths. This is the rule 'the chord with the fifth wins'.

    Also this chord.
    --0--
    --0--
    --3--
    --4--
    --2--
    --0--

  9. #24
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamsa
    This is an interesting subject.

    If you want to gain a better understanding of the very underpinnings of harmony check out this excellent book: Harmonic Experience by W. A. Mathieu, published by Inner Traditions International. (Among his endorsements is praise from Terry Riley and John Coltrane)

    One thing he illustrates is the use of the drone. So, when your playing a set of changes from the lydian mode, staying true to the diatonic tones, try playing C, or C & G, in the left hand (on keyboards) and the triads in the right hand.
    Triads from the scale of G major, that is.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamsa
    Another great source for understanding the lydian mode, besides Mr. Russels "Lydian Chromatic System"
    Uh-oh...
    Quote Originally Posted by jamsa
    is to study the music from the musical called "West Side Story" which was composed almost entirely in the lydian mode.

    There is a passing lydian feel to the opening of "Maria" (strong #4 in the melody), but it's really just a IV chord in a normal major key.
    AFAIK, no significant lydian content in any of the rest of the songs.

    Can you give examples? (I'm no expert on West Side Story, but this is the first I've heard of a lydian theme throughout.)

  10. #25
    IbreatheMusic Author ChrisJ's Avatar
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    I wouldn't make too much of the lydian mode. I think there is a common misconception: The lydian scale is the perfect major scale. In one sense, this is true -- it is better balanced than the major scale. The #4 and 3rd get along well together, with enough distance between them to be used together in harmony. As a single entity, the lydian mode is great, in other words, harmonized as a single chord or used to play over a single chord. But, it does not harmonize nicely to a set of diatonic chords like the major scale. Its "V" chord is a major 7 chord. Some people would argue that the only real progression is the perfect cadence, a "V7" - "I", and this is mostly true, at least when dealing with tonal and somewhat diatonic music. The "I," "iii" and "vi" chords being a version of the "I" chords and the rest, the "V" chord. So you see that the harmonized lydian scale gives us a pretty lame perfect cadence, matter of fact a ii-V-I in C lydian would be D7-Gmaj7-Cmaj7#11..

    The traditional and most common use for the lydian scale/chord, is simply a replacement of the "I" chord, as in a ii-V-I, in C, a Dmin7-G7-Cmaj7#11. Of course, the "V" chord also is generally replaced by the harmonized chord from the altered mode from MM, leaving only the "ii" chord from the original major scale harmony.
    Last edited by ChrisJ; 11-19-2008 at 09:02 PM.

  11. #26
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    To get to Modal sounds one of the first things you can do for yourself is to use chords that are not related diatonically. If you don't, many chord progression pull your ears directly to the diatonic I or Im chord.

    Many people spend way too much time trying to string diatonically related chords together to create "modal progressions". Some of the cooler sounds come when the chords aren't connected diatonically. This is what Miles, Mclaughlin, etc...do.

    Take a simple lesson from Miles' So What, two chords NOT connected diatonically, but the resolution of the Ebm7 chord back to the Dm7 makes it all work.

    Try this:

    ||: Bbm7 | Bbm7 | Bmaj7/#11 | Bmaj7/#11 :||

    Enharmonically this looks like A#m7 and Bmaj7/#11 from the Key of F# Major. This would lead the diatonically-modally-confused player to automatically think "A# Phrygian" and "B Lydian", nothing wrong with that...

    But try this: use Bb Aeolian for Bbm7 and B Lydian for Bmaj7/#11

    This sets up a nice resolve from the B chord back to the Bb chord.

    Too many times players "advance" to modes by wanting to "learn more notes to play", this leads them to diatonic theory (which is essential), which shows them how to navigate, recognize, and understand music from Keys, and how music can be related back to Keys, but there can be different elements to modal playing that you don't get from straight diatonic thinking...or linking, when it comes to modal progressions.

    Use some disparate chords for a while that force you to change scales, but resolve nicely back to the original chord.

    Here's another one:

    ||: Gm7 | Gm7 | Bbm7 | Bbm7 :|| Basically use G Dorian and Bb Dorian respectively (I'll get to the Lydian aspect, follow me on this).

    You can take this another step by playing/substituting with the harmonies within the chords. IOW, build a chord or set of harmonies from the R, m3, and 5 of each chord...

    Gm7 = Gm, Bbmaj7, Dm
    Bbm7 = Bbm, Dbmaj7, Fm

    Look at the two original chords, they are a step and a half, or a Minor 3rd apart. This "two m7 chords a Minor 3rd apart" is ALL OVER modern modal music. But look at those harmony chords...they are also a Minor 3rd apart (Gm->Bbm, Bbmaj7->Dbmaj7, Dm->Fm).

    This setup up "parallels" that are used all the time in modern modal music. For an improv'er these can be looked at as G Dorian->Bb Dorian, Bb Lydian->Dd Lydian, and D D Aeolian->F Aeolian. Of course the basis is still G Dorian to Bb Dorian and the rest are the "harmonies" of those two scales/chords.

    Try changing the progression from Gm7->Bbm7 to Bbmaj7->Dbmaj7 instead. You'll hear that it's like an extension from the original progression. Now use Bb Lyd and Db Lyd to play over them. Now you'll have linear harmony that's ALL based on the original progression.

    Many people break all of this down to NOTHING but Bb Major and Bb Minor. This is "two different chord families built from the same Root", this is also very common in modern modal music, since it's nothing more really than the "two m7 chords a Minor 3rd apart" really.

    So scale wise try this progression as Bbmaj7->Bbm7. Use Bb Lydian and Bb Dorian. You'll see that all these harmonies can be seen, or playing from ONE ROOT...Bb.

    This is how an improv'er mind will work modally, but you really need to start with a modal type progression instead of crampng modes into a diatonically "correct" progression.

    Again you can think of that progression as only G Dorian and Bb Dorian, but as you experiment realize this...these are two chords that are NOT connected diatonically and you have to change scales, that's the first step, but harmonically they make one of the most commonly used modern Modal progressions, and you can push the limits by delving in deeper to the harmonies within each chord, as hopefully I've explained.
    Last edited by gennation; 11-20-2008 at 01:32 AM.

  12. #27
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    I've have a set of tutorials especially for the Lydian mode, it's a four part series that will show you ways of looking at the scale itself differently, much like Vai, Johnson, and Satch do, but it's will also show you a ton about progressions and chord types that are a perfect bed for the Lydian mode...

    Here's part 1, 2, and 3:

    http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons.../LydianTOC.htm

    Here's part 4:

    http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons...nPatterns4.htm

    There's a ton of application based concepts in those. 1,2,3 have audio and tab, 4 only has the tab. But work through them, this is how those guys, include many others, play modally but it sounds so Pentatonic, but not Bluesy.
    Last edited by gennation; 11-20-2008 at 02:29 PM.

  13. #28
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    Seek out this great Lydian tune by Chick Corea called Windows. It's in the realbook if you have and there are a few versions of it on youtube. Here's the original I believe (although, his version with Getz might be the original, not sure): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYiZnO0vflI

    It doesn't necessarily satay in Lydian the whole song by probably about 90% of it does...the other 10% is used to push it back to Lydian.

    Also look up the tune by Steve Vai called Km-Pee-Du-Wee, there has to be a version on youtube. I recorded the intro parts myself a while back and then did a little improv off it, nothing but Lydian: http://test.mikedodge.com/miked/km-pee-du-wee.mp3

    That pentatonic sound that Vai uses when playing modes, Lydian in this case, is what those tutorials explain. There's a ton of ways to carve up those scales into small, more inspiring, scale forms. Corea, Metheny, Mclaughlin, Krantz, Beck, etc...all to it too. It'll REALLY help you break the "scalular" sound and find many bits of magic in them instead.

  14. #29
    IbreatheMusic Author ChrisJ's Avatar
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    Try a minor pentatonic scale down a half step from the chord, Ex: B minor pentatonic over a C major type chord.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by gennation
    It'll REALLY help you break the "scalular" sound and find many bits of magic in them instead.
    Yes, absolutely. Take any scale or mode and find all the possible triads and 7th chords , extended chords, fourths, and any other patterns you can imagine. these are the nuts and bolts for making music.

    And, yes I was wrong about "all" the music from West Side Story being done with the lydian mode as a base. But a lot of it was used as far as I can tell.

    Walter Mathieu's book, Harmonic Experience, delves deeply into modal territory. It is an one of the best sources for understanding the underpinnings of harmony. I have studied Arnold Schoenbergs works and he is a bit hard to understand for me. But Mr. Mathieu's book I have found to be quite easy to get into and with good results!

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