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Thread: The Tritone, Substitution, Cycle 4

  1. #1
    Resident Curmudgeon szulc's Avatar
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    The Tritone, Substitution, Cycle 4

    Discussion thread for The Tritone, Substitution, Cycle 4
    Article. Here is the SpreadSheet Mentioned at the beginning of the article.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by szulc; 01-23-2004 at 12:21 AM.
    "Listen to the Spaces Between the sounds."
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  2. #2
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    This could be inspirational !!
    I'm familiar with some of the principles outlined - (more or less) - but I've never seen it, (or thought of it ) taken this far.

    Thanks, James !
    :Mike

  3. #3
    Resident Curmudgeon szulc's Avatar
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    Thanks!
    This article took a bit of research and some critical thinking to write and proof read! It has been a couple of months in the making.
    I am Glad you liked it. Hopefully you downloaded the spreadsheet and are investigating the concepts with it.
    "Listen to the Spaces Between the sounds."
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  4. #4
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    Alas, no computing device @ home. I did load the sheet on my work Mac.
    I've got the print out, though and the inspiration - (and possibly the knowledge) - to work out a number of things, based on this.
    I'm thinkin', among other things, that I could find a new way of understanding the fretboard.

    I'll be outa' here, pretty quick and home to practice ! I'll let ya' know how I make out on Monday.

    -weekend
    Mike

  5. #5
    Registered User Spin 2513's Avatar
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    sZulc'

    What program opens that file? i don't seem to be able to open it .

  6. #6
    Resident Curmudgeon szulc's Avatar
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    Microsoft Excel or Open Office/Star Office if you use Unix or Linux.
    "Listen to the Spaces Between the sounds."
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  7. #7
    IbreatheMusic Author Bizarro's Avatar
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    Cool article. Very deep! I like the practical applications.
    -Bizarro
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  8. #8
    Resident Curmudgeon szulc's Avatar
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    I really expected a lot of questions on this one!
    "Listen to the Spaces Between the sounds."
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  9. #9
    iBreatheMusic Modthor phantom's Avatar
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    szulc,
    you know that this is really "special stuff".
    maybe it was just too much for most of the guys so that they just didn't bother understanding. it takes a good while to experience all the possibilities - not even speaking of making it a part of your playing.
    for myself i like to think about all the options a lot but there is so much other stuff to get perfect with. and i think most people just don't know what to do with it or how to include it in their current playing (i guess).
    just my opinion on the reposts - could be totally wrong though and everybody understands it completely. .
    if you would open a thread on how to play 32nd notes at 300bpm or give away the secret scale that makes you sound like a hero you would get 20 replies within a day.
    no insult anyone - just my thought on "average guitar players priority"

  10. #10
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    Well, I didn't put as much time in on this as I thought I might, this weekend.
    .........don't these people know how selfish I am !,?-

    I was working with the dim/b9, and the 9#5. It looks as though I could add a root to any of these inversions - (a major 3rd below the bass note )- and end up with the same, functioning chord, in a different key. Is that going to be true with any symmetrical/movable chord shape ?

    Can you point me to an article that will explain the use of altered chords ?
    I can play these things, when I see them. I can, sometimes play over them but if I'm looking too add something like this, I have to "feel around" 'till something sounds right.

    I'm sure I'll have more ??'s as work w/this more.
    Thanks!
    Mike

    .....I just realized what I asked, above. I mean, of course, something that would serve as a primer on when and why to use these things.
    Last edited by mjo; 01-26-2004 at 08:20 PM.

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    Hi, all
    I still have a question about use re: tritone sub / altered chords.
    The tritone sub was taught, to me as a b5 substitute. It's built on the flatted 5th of the chord it's replacing and is often played with a flatted 5th, itself - that note being the root of the chord it has replaced. ( I think I got that right.,?)
    So, if all of that is correct, would it be reasonable to assume that when I see a dom,b5 chord on a lead sheet it is likely to be a tritone sub ? What, other reason may a dom b5 chord be used ?

    I'm trying to understand when & why altered chords are used, for my own composition or "perverting" an old standard.

    Should I have started a new thread for this ?

    Thanks !
    :Mike

  12. #12
    Afro-Cuban Grunge-Pop Bongo Boy's Avatar
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    Okay, here we go.

    First off, thanks James for taking the time to do this. I spend nearly two hours on the plane this week getting to the paragraph just prior to the first PowerTab on page 1. I'm totally dumbfounded, for a number of reasons, and I'm not sure where to start--you know how debilitating the feeling of frustration can be. Here are things that are causing me to go wacky:

    a) I have no idea of WHY a substitution of one chord for another is useful or interesting

    b) The language of 'pivoting' makes no sense at all to me--it just doesn't conjure up any mental image that helps understand what's going on

    c) You mention a 'tritone note' but never define it--a tritone is an interval, so to my stupid brain that implies two notes--neither one of which is more or less significant that the other. I still can't figure out which of the two notes that participate in a tritone is the tritone note. The most cryptic sentence--the one that totally baffles me--is the second sentence prior to the first PowerTab--the one that starts "So by pivoting I mean...". I have two comments that I wrote next to this sentence: 1) what is a tritone note, and 2) the new what (referring to the last 4 words of this sentence.

    Finally, the last sentence on the first page just prior to the first PowerTab makes reference to "...you can play the IV7 chord by...". This one REALLY blew me away. Three reasons:

    1. The NOTATION that you used confuses me: in my limited experience so far, the notation "IV" means the fourth degree of the major scale, and it implies a major chord. But, IV7 implies a dominant chord. I just bought a book that does a similar thing, writing out a blues chords progression as "I7 IV7 I7 I7". This way of expressing 7ths (but NOT doms) is new and weird to me. I don't know what's going on. And...

    2) You refer to '...moving the tritone down a half-step and the root up a P4". I just don't know what you mean. Again, this is kinda like my comment above re: the tritone note. I'm just not getting what it means to 'move a tritone', because I'm thinking of a tritone as an interval...not a note. And then...

    3) What is the POINT regarding a IV7 chord. Why do I care about being able to play this at all? What is it, and why did you mention it?

    So...you can probably detect extreme frustration. After TWO HOURS of looking at this first page, I was able to figure out that a tritone substitution for a dom7 is the chord name that would appear 180 degrees across from the original chord on a cycle-of-keys diagram. No surprise I guess, since there are twelve semitones on the cycle-of-keys, and so the diametrically opposed tone is 6 semitones away.

    So basically at the point of Page 1, I'm ready to shoot myself. I think I have the mechanics of doing a tritone substitution, I have no idea of why I'd want to, and I see no connection to the cycle of keys other than the one I just mentioned.

    The paisto resisto comes with the statement just after the first PowerTab, still on the first page (just prior to the "Moveable Chord Forms..." section). Absolutely, totally friggin' blown away by this--totally no clue as to what you're saying or why it's significant. Moving something 'chromatically' to me suggests moving in semitones--I just don't see a connection here.

    Frustration is often expressed as anger...so if you guys detect a little 'snap' to this post, I apologize. I HATE not understanding something--I'm not getting ****ty with you even if it may feel like it. Sometimes I think I'm pretty smart, but I'd be lucky to get a job if I had to look for one.
    Last edited by Bongo Boy; 02-05-2004 at 05:44 AM.
    Pulsing the System with Confirmed Nonsense.

  13. #13
    Resident Curmudgeon szulc's Avatar
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    a
    Jazzers like having alternate possibilities for harmony.
    Mostly because it gives them more flexiblity in dealing with improvised lines, aslo becaue it can sound very cool.
    b
    "If you move from a Dom7 to it's tritone substitution you are basically pivoting on the tritone to a chord up a tritone. "
    I believe this is the line that is giving you trouble.
    If you play G7 the tritone occurs between B(3) and F(b7). In G7's tritone sub Db7, the tritone is between F(3) and B(b7). So I am drawing attention that you are pivoting on the tritone, since those notes remain constant through both chords.
    c
    Tritone: 1/2 an Octave, 3 Whole steps, 6 Half steps, b5 etc....
    "So by pivoting I mean you keep the tritone note in place and move the root (and or fifth) to the new one. In this case I am talking about 3 note voicings." I should have said Notes here, sorry! "New One" means new root and or 5th of the new (substitute) chord.
    1
    IV7 is referring to the Dom7 (family) chord up a Perfect 4th, from where you are currently.
    2
    The tritone interval moves down a half step and the root moves up a P4.
    3
    The point is that most harmony moves in Perfect 4ths and so this is going to be a very common progression. (ie. Blues)


    Did you read the TAB? or Staff?
    Look at the TAB or Staff to see that the tritone interval is moving down in half steps each chord change. (Starting with the second A7 chord.)

    "So you can move tritones down chromatically to move through cycle four, just place the root accordingly."

    I am glad you are struggling through this, it is helping me do a better job of explaining it, and it wasn't easy the first time.
    The bad news is you are really gonna get blown away by the next few pages.
    I do suggest that you download the spreadsheet and play with it to try and come to a mathematical understanding of this.
    Ask more questions!
    James
    "Listen to the Spaces Between the sounds."
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  14. #14
    Afro-Cuban Grunge-Pop Bongo Boy's Avatar
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    As always, thanks for your patience. I'll be back.
    Pulsing the System with Confirmed Nonsense.

  15. #15
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    This chart may be helpful: Tritone Substitution
    If you dig Jazz visit
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