Welcome!
Just a few a ground rules first...

Promotion, advertising and link building is not permitted.

If you are keen to learn, get to grips with something with the willing help of one of the net's original musician forums
or possess a genuine willingness to contribute knowledge - you've come to the right place!

Register >

- Close -
Results 1 to 7 of 7

Thread: Hey Jazz Guy - Upper Structure Colors <Video Inside

  1. #1
    dwest2419
    Guest

    Hey Jazz Guy - Upper Structure Colors <Video Inside

    Hi guys. I just have a question. How do I apply this concept on paper first then on the guitar second? I want to get into some jazz, and from this video, now I understand how these jazz guys get all those non harmonic sounds over a chord.
    But where do I start?


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JADaaivwMt0

  2. #2
    Registered User Malcolm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Deep East Texas Piney Woods
    Posts
    3,145
    Quote Originally Posted by dwest2419 View Post
    Hi guys. I just have a question. How do I apply this concept on paper first then on the guitar second? I want to get into some jazz, and from this video, now I understand how these jazz guys get all those non harmonic sounds over a chord.
    But where do I start?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JADaaivwMt0
    The video points out scale degrees stacked in 3rds, and then he plays them as arpeggios. Nothing new or really helpful here.

    That is what chords are; notes of the scale stacked in 3rds or every other note in the scale grouped into chord form.
    Last edited by Malcolm; 01-30-2014 at 03:23 AM.

  3. #3
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Twickenham, UK
    Posts
    4,959
    Quote Originally Posted by dwest2419 View Post
    Hi guys. I just have a question. How do I apply this concept on paper first then on the guitar second? I want to get into some jazz, and from this video, now I understand how these jazz guys get all those non harmonic sounds over a chord.
    But where do I start?


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JADaaivwMt0
    1. Don't do it "on paper first". Do it on guitar first. If you can't do it on guitar (assuming that's your main instrument), what's the point? You have to hear it first, and understand what you're hearing (I don't mean understand the theory, I just mean appreciate it properly as sound), and then play it. Writing anything down comes later, if you find it helps.
    2. Are you really sure you understand tertian harmony to begin with? Normal chord extensions up to 13 are enough to occupy most jazz musicians for a lifetime. So -
    3. Forget about anything beyond A (C# F Ab etc)
    4. Forget about those major triads off each chord tone (except for the 5th).
    5. Start (pretty much) as he says at the end - and I'd structure it this way:

    1. Pick a standard jazz progression - any one you like.
    2. add diatonic 7ths to every chord in a progression - this is a normal thing anyway. Ask yourself what triads they make if you leave the root out. (Eg Cmaj7 = Em/C.) This is the beginning of the principle: a way of seeing upper structures as different superimposed chords.
    3. add diatonic 9ths. Again, see what chords they make. Omitting the root gives you new 7th chords; omitting root and 3rd gives you triads (Em7 or G on a C root).
    4. However, not all diatonic 9ths sit well on the chord. This is when you confront the issue - the absolutely crucial issue - of harmonic function.
    A chord progression is not just a sequence of individual sounds. separate stacks of notes; it's a connected machine, that functions through voice-leading. Most 9ths are OK, but some sound "off". Eg, if you add an F to an Em7 chord (key of C), it makes awkward intervals with the E and B. It disturbs its function as a iii chord, or as a tonic substitute. (Em7 can sub for Cmaj7, because it's a rootless Cmaj9; but F is an avoid note on Cmaj7.) Maybe you can add an F# instead? That sounds better on the chord, but does it work in the progression? That's always the question.
    5. Similar issues apply to adding 11ths and 13ths. But go through the progression doing the same thing: stacking these extra extentions, but always LISTENING to check (a) how they sound on the chord itself, and (b) how they work relative to chords either side.

    If there's anything you don't understand in the above, you're definitely not ready for the way more advanced stuff he's spelling out on the board.

  4. #4
    dwest2419
    Guest
    JonR I hope you don't mind me asking this question, but I'm a little bit confused on where he gets the note D from in his concept of stacking thirds together in the order of these notes C E G B D F# A C# F Ab?

  5. #5
    dwest2419
    Guest
    Am I looking at this wrong but your pattern consist of a mixture of Major and Minor third intervals, except the last one throws the pattern off. For example, C (Maj3rd) to E (Min3rd) to G (Maj3rd) to B (Min3rd) to D (Maj3rd) to F# (Min3rd) to A (Maj3rd) to C# (Min3rd) to F (Min3rd) to Ab. I suppose the last F to Ab pattern could have been A to continue the Maj3rd Min3rd Maj3rd pattern, but then again he listed the note A already which why he listed Ab.
    Last edited by dwest2419; 04-08-2014 at 04:31 PM.

  6. #6
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Twickenham, UK
    Posts
    4,959
    Quote Originally Posted by dwest2419 View Post
    JonR I hope you don't mind me asking this question, but I'm a little bit confused on where he gets the note D from in his concept of stacking thirds together in the order of these notes C E G B D F# A C# F Ab?
    D is a 3rd above B. Duh, right?

  7. #7
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Twickenham, UK
    Posts
    4,959
    Quote Originally Posted by dwest2419 View Post
    Am I looking at this wrong but your pattern consist of a mixture of Major and Minor third intervals, except the last one throws the pattern off. For example, C (Maj3rd) to E (Min3rd) to G (Maj3rd) to B (Min3rd) to D (Maj3rd) to F# (Min3rd) to A (Maj3rd) to C# (Min3rd) to F (Min3rd) to Ab. I suppose the last F to Ab pattern could have been A to continue the Maj3rd Min3rd Maj3rd pattern, but then again he listed the note A already which why he listed Ab.
    As I said before, if you don't understand what's happening as far as A, you definitely won't understand what's happening beyond A (not sure I understand it myself, nor what would be the benefit if I did).

    Anyway, you've got the wrong end of the stick thinking about the order of maj-min 3rds. The first seven notes are just the 7 notes of a C lydian mode (because that contains no avoid notes, so they can all make good chord extensions). The types of 3rds are just a result of that. (And D-F# is a maj3, not min as you wrote.)

    Personally, I've no idea of the logic behind extending beyond A to C# F and Ab - what he calls the "super upper structure". (and what happened to D#/Eb and A#/Bb? why stop at 10 notes when you could have the full set?) . It's OK, I'm not asking you - but I'm as baffled by that as you are, and have no idea why I should be interested in the first place.
    The only logic I can see is that C# F and Ab are a half-step above the basic C-E-G triad (but then why not call C# Db? makes more sense in that case). But they are certainly dissonant extensions on the basic chord.

    ...ah, hang on, he's building maj7 chords off the (non-root) C lydian tones:
    E - G#B D#
    G - B D F#
    B - D# F# A#
    D - F# A C#
    F# - A# C# E#(F)
    A - C# E G#(Ab)
    and then he continues that principle to maj7s built on C#/Db (maj3 of A), F (maj3 of Db) and - er - Ab (5th of Db, breaking his rule, because - as you point out - he's already used A (maj3 of F).

    This is an arbitrary notion, a game, with no relation to the actual sound of the harmony.

    Sorry I'm not more help, but I think you need to contact the guy himself and see if he can explain it to you (I mean better than his dumb comments on youtube). As I say, it's of no interest to me, and has nothing to do with any jazz I know of. (Of course, I don't know about ALL jazz... )

    [Further rant removed...]

Similar Threads

  1. Me being crazy!-video inside-
    By Carvinite in forum iBreathe Cafe
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-05-2010, 01:28 PM
  2. Visual Music & Colors
    By Solstice in forum Music Theory
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 09-24-2007, 03:44 PM
  3. Shredding jazz video
    By DanF in forum iBreathe Cafe
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-23-2004, 01:07 PM
  4. [Trouble] the upper arm Relaxing method
    By anotherbbs in forum iBreathe Cafe
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-04-2004, 01:27 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •