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Thread: List of Tendencies

  1. #91
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    @ Anatole

    I've put up an updated chart, see if maybe it answers some of your questions.

    http://freejazzinstitute.com/showpos..._Ken_Valentino

  2. #92
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    @ Motherlode

    Thanks so much for the idea!

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Valentino 2 View Post
    I've put up an updated chart, see if maybe it answers some of your questions.

    http://freejazzinstitute.com/showpos..._Ken_Valentino
    OK great!

    what are almost tonics ?
    why did you write watch out for coexisting tonics next to dark pos b3 (5 b6) ?
    are expended and suspended the sounds of necessarily two connections (5 5) and (4 4) or you can sound them directly with (2) and (b7) ? arent those two too ambiguous ? do you mean though they sound weak they really are the sound of (5 5) and (4 4) ?

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    what are almost tonics ?
    I got the idea from almost prime which is a math term. It ended up working better than only using ratios.

    Applied to music it means if a ratio isn't made up of small primes, then it's easier for the ear to just connect through multiple primes. So basically "45" in a ratio is better expressed as "3 x 3 x 5".

    Now applied to Tonics it means that even though a connection is subjectively proved to not have a Tonic, there is still mood and perceived intonation that occurs because of that connection. That's really why different routes matter.

    So you need to know what prime and what direction (Pos/Neg) each connection is. Almost Tonics give you that direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    why did you write watch out for coexisting tonics next to dark pos b3 (5 b6) ?
    It's the most common Coexisting Tonic. Unlike Almost Tonics, Coexisting Tonics are proven to be subjectively true.

    An example of how this matters is a pos dark b3 would resolve to a ex 2, whereas a pos dark b3 that's also a Tonic wouldn't resolve to a bright 7/ex 2 (all things being equal of course).


    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    are expended and suspended the sounds of necessarily two connections (5 5) and (4 4) or you can sound them directly with (2) and (b7) ? arent those two too ambiguous ? do you mean though they sound weak they really are the sound of (5 5) and (4 4) ?
    Yes if you know the sound of Ex 2 already you may not need to go through all the connections. But if say you don't know if you have a Blue b7 or a sus b7, then you need to go through routes that help to prove it.

    Skipping connections gives you more variety in your routes so it's a good thing to strive for. There's also the fact that what someone else is playing or a form in your imagination is already making those connections.

    There's even the timbre of the instrument. What if the 3rd harmonic (5) is really loud? Then if you play a 2 then you're more apt to hear Ex 2.

    So b7, 2 are ambiguous because of versatility. Blue 2, Blue b7, Ex 2, Sus b7, Bright sus 2, etc.. Use the different routes to create a more obvious memory of them.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Valentino 2 View Post
    say you don't know if you have a Blue b7 or a sus b7, then you need to go through routes that help to prove it.
    Use the different routes to create a more obvious memory of them.
    is there really a road to b7 !? ain't it only directly that it connects to its tonic nevertheless the other connections and that what is tricky about it ? on the piano If I play an 1 3 5 b7 arpeggio it always sounds kinda dark as if being a pos dark b3 of the 5,
    if I try to sing 1 3 5 b7 it seems to default to a blue b7 which is the most in tune and positive ?

    well on the piano when I play 1 5 9 b7 and 1 5 10 b7, those two b7 on top do sound different, the latter sounds perhaps (better) more complex and positive.

    1 5 10 b7 do resolve to the 1 above, 1 5 9 b7 also,
    now with 1 5 b10 b7 seems to resolve to the 1 above but kinda less but also to the b3 above !?

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    is there really a road to b7 !? ain't it only directly that it connects to its tonic nevertheless the other connections and that what is tricky about it ? on the piano If I play an 1 3 5 b7 arpeggio it always sounds kinda dark as if being a pos dark b3 of the 5,
    if I try to sing 1 3 5 b7 it seems to default to a blue b7 which is the most in tune and positive ?
    Yes the blue b7 is a prime connection, It doesn't need other numbers unless they help bring in a memory. They could make it harder.

    The piano version sounds like a Pos Dark Transfer b7 - (5 b6 5).

    And yes the singing version is probably the Blue b7.


    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    well on the piano when I play 1 5 9 b7 and 1 5 10 b7, those two b7 on top do sound different, the latter sounds perhaps (better) more complex and positive.

    1 5 10 b7 do resolve to the 1 above, 1 5 9 b7 also,
    now with 1 5 b10 b7 seems to resolve to the 1 above but kinda less but also to the b3 above !?
    1 5 9 b7 is probably the Pos Dark Transfer b7 and the 1 5 10 b7 is probably the Blue b7, and it's good that you're checking the Tonic.

    As far as resolving to a b3 in this context it could very easily be a coexisting tonic.

  7. #97
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    Hello Ken,

    what did you mean by key centering ?
    how does key centering happen when playing monophonically / a capella ?

    thank you!

  8. #98
    oo cool

  9. #99
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    Thank you for information

  10. #100
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    List of Tendencies Article have a Good Stuff. I Have a little Knowledge. Thank you for information.

  11. #101
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    List of Tendencies Information is amazing

  12. #102
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    yes the singing version is probably the Blue b7.
    Ken,

    so what happens really when one try to hold singing a descending maj 2nd from the I over a tonic I chord ?
    it may harmonize with the I chord sounding a blue b7 (8:7 tonic high) ? could you really sing a negative b7 (8:9) over a I chord without it to lock on the most consonant blue b7 ? (or the negative b7 intonation would happen anticipating the chords changing to IV ?)

    if you have time to think about my question in post#97 it would be great,
    I've read somewhere that barbershop singers do tune from the lead voice, is that key centering too ?

    thank you Ken, until next time!

  13. #103
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    so what happens really when one try to hold singing a descending maj 2nd from the I over a tonic I chord ?
    it may harmonize with the I chord sounding a blue b7 (8:7 tonic high) ? could you really sing a negative b7 (8:9) over a I chord without it to lock on the most consonant blue b7 ? (or the negative b7 intonation would happen anticipating the chords changing to IV ?)

    if you have time to think about my question in post#97 it would be great,
    I've read somewhere that barbershop singers do tune from the lead voice, is that key centering too ?
    Yes you can sing a sus b7, but the Positive Dark Transfer b7 is more common and for me the Blue b7 is the "go to". The sus thing I think is maybe how some hear the quartal thing, but I've heard that the Tonic is the highest note from some prominent "quartal" guitarists. So that would make it positive and the Ex 2 from that root.

    A susb7 sounds very forced so it's good for intros, tension parts etc.. it's not comfortable. The Pos Dark Trans b7 and the Blue b7 are more resolved.

    If a "b7" is anticipating going to the IV chord then there may be a blend (Morphing) happening. They could both be Blue notes if the I chord has more mass, or they could be more classical and a tiny bit (if at all) of sus b7 blending to a neg 4, then either way usually down to the 3 of the "IV" chord.

    About barbershop singers, I think that others like to make some "rule" about it. I'd rather think that they just use their ear and if the Tonic and number fit a certain intonation then that's what they naturally sing.

    I read a study where they said that the intonation of the b7 wasn't "always" on the 7th harmonic. Apparently trying to disprove that we hear harmonics. Of course that's assuming that the tonic and/or route never changed (which why wouldn't it sometimes). I'd like to ask those researchers then how is it that their barbershop intonation is dead on together for each part, Hmm?

    I'll check out your other post.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    Hello Ken,

    what did you mean by key centering ?
    how does key centering happen when playing monophonically / a capella ?

    thank you!
    Well to me that just means one Tonic the whole time. There are some Celtic and Blues tunes that sound like that to me. We don't know for sure if it happened previously but classical music is assumed to be responsible for inventing Tonic movement.

    The idea of "Key Centering" though is when the song isn't just one Tonic, but you craft your phrases to make one Tonic work.

    So by yourself with only a melody it would have to be hearing Tonics changing in your imagination, but playing a single Key Centered melody. Again timing is crucial.

    Was there a certain post that I talked about "Key Centering" that you're asking about?

  15. #105
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    @Anatole I found your message about key centering.

    The perfect 4th (neg 4) is the simplest negative note so it has the most to gain in "moving to another note" or "horizontal".

    The Dark b6 is also a great "horizontal" note in my way of thinking. If it is truly Dark then you know there's "Key Centering" going on. It's really an opposite way from the positive "Vertical" "every note harmonizes, in the chord" way of thinking. You want the contrast, the movement from negative to positive, it's strong.

    So in the Key of "E" if I play Cmaj, is it Bright because I moved there (Vertical), or is it Dark because I'm still attached to my Key (Horizontal)? If it's Bright I'm resolved, if it's Dark I feel more of a need to get back.

    This is why I don't think that "Horizontal" is the same as Morphing Tonics as far as I understand it. To me it's seems to be the way that negative and blue numbers were dealt with. Of course numbers are a "relative" thing to me, for example a neg 4 could be more resolved than a sus dark b5. Then it would be "vertical" in the sense that it didn't need movement.

    Granted in normal usage this would usually be in a coexisting context where another Tonic would be on the positive side. So it works most of the time which is perhaps the better more efficient system especially if you play more changes as opposed to key centering.

    Put another way if you "Key Center" a song with a lot of notes you'll hear some negative ones. Or if you want to sound positive in a song with a lot of notes then find the Lydian Tonics.

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