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Thread: List of Tendencies

  1. #106
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    really great answers Ken, thank you for sharing.
    it's cool really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Valentino 2 View Post
    Was there a certain post that I talked about "Key Centering" that you're asking about?
    I'm afraid it's gone with the allaboutjazz forum. that's a shame. I think I might remember you evoking key centering in the context of pop songs built on chord loops,
    Does it sounds plausible to you ? I was asking if/how the ear would stay attached to the tonic chord and anticipate it because of the loop and how much that would affect the melody ?
    since then I've been also questioning it the other way around; the melody monophonically sounding its tonic(s) while the chords looping underneath it still keeping a certain relation to the melody, syncing to it or shifting from it depending on the moment in time. I thought this somehow had to do with key centering.
    is it the chord on beat 1 that takes much of the attention because of its privileged placement in time or is it because it starts by syncing/agreeing with the melody tonic ?
    in other words, who is responsible for the tonal center of the song ?

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by motherlode View Post
    Disclaimer: Any opinions, analyses, systems, methodologies, or other information expressed here should not be construed as musical advice.
    --------------------------------
    I'm not sure what the term 'key centering' in post#106 means, but consider this ...

    We know that there are (12) keys. Now consider a chord such as C7b9b5 as it would appear in each of the (12) keys.

    Even though the chord might be spelled correctly on paper ... it can still be wrong due to it's voicing. If such a chord is not native to the key, then it's voicing must allow it's tones to 'play nice' with the natives.

    For example:
    Q. What key is this?

    C7b9b5 ... | D-11 ... | D-69(b5) ... | Bb69/F ... ||

    I can tell you that those (4) chords work together as a team in support of the key.

    A. That's the 1st (4) bars of 'Old McDonald had a Farm' in 'C'.

    Why would this work? Because the 'C7b9b5' has been SLAVED to the key (through voicing) ... it has key centering if you will.
    -------------------------------
    e Bb Db Gb c
    Those (5) tones have 5! (5x4x3x2x1) = (120) possible voicing ...

    What's the point? When chords are all slaved to the same key ... they can be played in ANY ORDER!!

    The above (4) chords would yield: 4! (4x3x2x1) = (24) different progressions.

    I'll stop there ...
    @ML
    very interesting point indeed, is it OK to you to tell some examples of those chords voicings slaved to a melody in C major ?

    does the chords really matter to create an overall tonic / tonal center in this case when it seems the melody points so much (because of its intervals and its repetition) towards C ?
    Last edited by anatole; 12-03-2018 at 06:00 PM.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by motherlode View Post
    @anatole

    Congratulations for trying! My mother used to tell me nothing beats a failure , but a try.

    That's where all music begins, simple block chords with the melody. This is only for spelling purposes, they're blocks, not voiced yet. At the beginning stages, I don't suggest having the harmony above the melody.

    I only chose the above chords because they're so different from the originals. Now the voicing actually begins.

    Try this:

    Bar
    1) e Bb Db Gb c ... I only need (1) 'C' in the chord, the melody

    2) D g c f a --> D f b e g ... The melody comes to rest, so does the harmony

    3) F ('F' is played in the octave below the cluster) Ab b C# e ... wakes the ear up

    4) F Bb D g C --> E Bb Eb Ab C ... rest at the end of the phrase, (2) chord suspension, sets up the next move

    What's missing? Rhythm, how the tones will inter and exit, the use of space and timing, and above all audibility of the melody.

    Although interesting, I think this subject is off topic.


    Do the chords matter? Yes, if you're going to have harmony.


    You know the melody is in 'C' in your mind, but the ear didn't know that upon listening. And in fact, if one of these schoolboys were to analyze the music ... the melody would be viewed in terms of it's relationship to the chord.

    NOT as separate entity, because that's the way they've been taught.

    But as I've said more than once ... the melody and the harmony operate in a parallel universe.

    Some get it, and Some don't ... I'm Gone.
    http://freejazzinstitute.com/showpos...22000_anatole_

    if one would listen to each chord one after another (pausing the track), its top note, even though belonging to the melody is heard by the ear in relation to the chord !?

    now in another situation, one may recognize the oldmac's farm theme and begins hearing the melody on its own with the chords "coloring" it !?
    but isn't that the way things work and interact, top - down (the chords "coloring" the melody) AND bottom - up at the same time (the melody note at its relation to the chord tonic) ?
    and what is a "strong" melody really if not a melody that reveals its tonic regardless the chords sounding beneath it ?
    Last edited by anatole; 12-03-2018 at 06:00 PM.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by motherlode View Post
    back to the beginning, the term 'key centering' was not defined. I was only making a comment with a small example.

    I'm not overly concerned with how someone else hears the music. I only know how i hear it, and what i feel needs to heard ...

    I'm not a theoretician ... I'm a practitioner.
    ----------------------------
    now, i wrote out the example as music, not a theory exercise and added it to your audio post ...

    http://freejazzinstitute.com/showpos...52036_anatole_
    ok.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by motherlode View Post
    Disclaimer: Any opinions, analyses, systems, methodologies, or other information expressed here should not be construed as musical advice.
    -----------------------------------
    [SIZE=4]@anatole

    I don't mean to re-open this discussion, so a response is not necessary.

    Your comments on your own musical example:
    if one would listen to each chord ... its top note, even though belonging to the melody is heard by the ear in relation to the chord !?
    Why? Because look how you wrote the example. You used (2) different instruments of different color.
    You gave the melody to one, and a chord to the other. You separated the music into (2) parts, by adding orchestration.

    A single instrument (piano) with a simple block chord with the melody on top is all that was needed, giving us a single harmonious sound.

    There is no melody with a chord underneath.
    now in another situation, one may recognize the oldmac's farm theme and begins hearing the melody on its own with the chords "coloring" it !?but
    More of the same ... your logic is clouded because of your over zealousness.
    isn't that the way things work and interact, top - down (the chords "coloring" the melody)
    Sometimes, yes ... sometimes, no ... that's schoolbook logic.

    AND bottom - up at the same time (the melody note at its relation to the chord tonic) ?
    Absolutely not, schoolbook logic again.
    Rule of thumb, chords are voiced top-down, and named bottom-up. That doesn't mean the tonic is in the chord.
    ----------------------------------
    I could be wrong, but I get the feeling that you think that if you just keep collecting more and more information and asking more and more questions that that's going to get you where you want to go.

    It doesn't happen that way ... only constant WORK in the idiom will do it.
    OK. thanks for the message, you're right, I appreciate it.
    Last edited by anatole; 11-18-2018 at 05:41 PM.

  6. #111
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    @Motherlode

    Your C7b9b5 example got me thinking about Aux Dim Blues. If I take the Key chords (like Maj13b9) then I'm hearing Bright routes from the 3. The b3 can be heard Positive if it's backed into, but it's missing from the Key Chords.

    Also its a "Blues" Scale right? So Maybe at least the b3 is really a Blue Note. This would give a kinda default way of hearing it as : Bright or Ex Bright b2, Blue b3, Bright 3, Bright Ex +4, Pos 5, Ex or Bright 6, and Pos Bright b7.

    The Blue b3 is so common and easy to hear that a Blue b7 isn't necessarily needed. And a #IV Key Chord implies a Pos Bright b7.

    Does this seem close to how you hear it?

    I put a Chart up at the Free Jazz Institute.
    http://freejazzinstitute.com/showpos..._Ken_Valentino

  7. #112
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    To my ear the (-3) is brighter than the (3rd) in the maj13(b9) environment.
    The next thing that I write I'm going to write that sound into the music.
    Last edited by motherlode; Yesterday at 12:53 PM.

  8. #113
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    @ Motherlode

    Ok that makes sense that it's connected to the (3rd). Look forward to hearing your composition!

  9. #114
    acoustic piano can play heavy song?

  10. #115
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    http://freejazzinstitute.com/showpos...22000_anatole_

    example#1 is an example of how the chord voicing allows a chord that is not native to a key to resolve smoothly into said key.

    The 1st chord is always C7b9b5 (picked at random). A (5) tone chord has (120) voicings. The trick is to pick the right one to avoid an ABRUPT resolution, that would defeat the purpose.

    This is a special case. Experience teaches to let the music pick the chord quality, but if absolutely necessary the examples show that there is a method by which this can be done.
    the 1st chord has to be (C7b9b5) but to make it work the chord has to slaved to the new key.

    How? Is the tonic of the new key in the chord? If yes, place it at the TOP of the chord.
    If not, is there a (5th)? ... or (2nd)? ... (6th)? ... (3rd)? etc... place it on top.
    Is there another note from the new key in the chord? If yes, place it at the BOTTOM. If not, same procedure as above.

    Place the remaining chord tones inside. The entire chord should spread over (2) octaves.
    --------------------------
    To show that the (C7b9b5) has been properly voiced ... play the tonic chord of the new key in the 2nd bar ... and listen!

    A (5) tone chord has (120) voicings so it might have to be revised a bit in the middle ....

    IMO this could easily be termed 'key centering' ...
    ML, I understood this is a method to resolve smoothly into the new key by placing at the top / bottom voices of the chord within scale notes ?
    obviously you chose otherwise except for C (top note: c, bottom note: e), F (top: c, bottom: e) and A (Db e) that meet the above criteria ?
    Last edited by anatole; Yesterday at 10:07 AM.

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