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Thread: intervals??

  1. #1
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    intervals??

    My guitar teacher gave me a test on my last lesson he said to look away while he played lydian and mixolydian and he wanted me to tell him wich 1 of the 2 modes he was playing at that particular time but i failed i couldnt tell the difference from 1 mode 2 another and i kinda got down beat by it to be honest

    when i play the 7 modes in 1 given key its really hard for me to pick up on the difference as really all the modes sounds the same
    My teacher has said listen to lydian and try and hear the sound and try playing the 1st 7 notes out of the this mode he said listen to the 3rd and the 4th note out the 1st 7 notes!! he said theres a distinct sound or flavour as some might say..
    practice this method on 1 mode a week and in next to no time he said i will be able 2 tell the difference, he said its very important to learn these intervals with each mode he said that if i jam with other players and one plays a chord he said that i should recognize the root of a chord and the 5th or 7th note within this such chord and that i should know what mode i can play, i could be wrong though as at the time he was telling me i was kinda down beat about the whole experience with this test and i didnt pay enough attention in what he said

    so in my practice routine i shall incorporate this practice and play the 1st 7 notes within the mode and listen to the diff and say for example practice with 1 mode a week? im a little lost as really i was truly gutted that i could not recognize what the hell he was playing with out looking

    I am truly a baby when it comes to theory i must stress, i play mostly all the time and spend very little on reading up so if you could answer this problem that i have in simple terms and tell me how to practice this interval lark it would be a great great help

    Thank you for your replys and kind regards

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBbIe G View Post
    My teacher has said listen to lydian and try and hear the sound and try playing the 1st 7 notes out of the this mode he said listen to the 3rd and the 4th note out the 1st 7 notes!! he said theres a distinct sound or flavour as some might say..
    First of all you need to be very familiar with the sound of the major scale, are you?

    C D E F G A B C - Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti Do

    If you play a Lydian mode on the same root the 4th note is different - raised a half step - this is the distinction he's saying you should hear, to bring intervals into it E-F# goes up by an interval of a major second while E-F goes up by an interval of a minor second - again I think the key is to really have the sound of the major scale internalized first.

    C D E *F#* G A B C - Do Re Mi *Fi* Sol La Ti Do

  3. #3
    Registered User Color of Music's Avatar
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    Likewise, with the other modes:

    Major:

    Ionian: 1-2-3-4-5-6-7
    Lydian: (as above) - #4
    Mixolydian: (as above) - b7

    Minor:

    Aeolian (Natural Minor): Ionian with b3, b6, b7

    Dorian: (same as above) - #6 (In D: Bb becomes B; In C: Ab becomes A, etc.) (You also hear this tone in the ascending portion of the MM scale, but again, modes and scales are very distinct)

    Phrygian: Natural Minor - b2 (b9) which usually accompanies a Dom7

    Locrian: Ionian where all notes all flats, but 1 and 4 (The oddest of all seven)

    Thinking this way though does not mean that modes can be swapped although the chords that come from these can be; however, modes are a bit more loose when it comes to functional harmony - although they tend to shine more when discussing - er, applying non-functional harmony.

    This reason is due to each mode having its own distinct sound - even when hearing them in the context of keys (ie: harmonizing that scale via triads and sevenths; you get a definite tone with sevenths)

    But, yes, once you grasp the major scale, tackle the minor scale and pay extra attention to each modes' color tones. (You could say Locrian's CTs are the diatonic 1 and 4)

  4. #4
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBbIe G View Post
    My guitar teacher gave me a test on my last lesson he said to look away while he played lydian and mixolydian and he wanted me to tell him wich 1 of the 2 modes he was playing at that particular time but i failed i couldnt tell the difference from 1 mode 2 another and i kinda got down beat by it to be honest

    when i play the 7 modes in 1 given key its really hard for me to pick up on the difference as really all the modes sounds the same
    That's quite normal, because you are playing all the same 7 notes.
    To be honest, I'm a little concerned about your teacher's angle here...
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBbIe G View Post
    My teacher has said listen to lydian and try and hear the sound and try playing the 1st 7 notes out of the this mode he said listen to the 3rd and the 4th note out the 1st 7 notes!! he said theres a distinct sound or flavour as some might say..
    Quite true, but you need to be really used to the sound of the major scale first: "Do re mi so fa la ti do". You have to hear that (and play it) over and over, from do to do in both directions, holding the sound of "do" in your head, and really listen to how each note sounds in relation to that. Singing the scale also helps.
    Your teacher should have taken you through this first and made sure you were familiar enough with that sound. (If he didn't he might just have been assuming you knew it.)

    BTW, the distinctive flavour of lydian is in the 4th note (not the 3rd), although you might hear it better in relation to the 3rd and 5th than how it relates to the root. If you do know the sound of the major scale well, then the raised 4th of lydian will stand out. So - if it doesn't - that can only mean more work with the major scale is needed.

    Also, your teacher should be comparing modes on the same root. (Hopefully he is...)

    IOW, the 7 modes in the same key (ie the same scale in different patterns or orders) will all sound the same, because they are supposed to. When you are in a key - hearing "do" as tonal centre - then the other modes are irrelevant. This is known as "relative modes" (same notes, different roots).

    Where the differences are apparent is when you play different modes on the same root. This is known as parallel modes. Same keynote, different scale.
    So the difference between C ionian and F lydian may not be apparent (and is not too important whether it is or isn't). But the difference between C ionian and C lydian should be clear, and IS relevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBbIe G View Post
    practice this method on 1 mode a week and in next to no time he said i will be able 2 tell the difference, he said its very important to learn these intervals with each mode he said that if i jam with other players and one plays a chord he said that i should recognize the root of a chord and the 5th or 7th note within this such chord and that i should know what mode i can play, i could be wrong though as at the time he was telling me i was kinda down beat about the whole experience with this test and i didnt pay enough attention in what he said
    No, what you say makes perfect sense, so I'm sure that's what he did say. And he's not wrong, exactly.
    However I disagree strongly with him that this is necessarily important.

    Question is: what is your main aim in learning to play guitar? Not necessarily your ultimate goal (to be a guitar hero superstar of course ), but your immediate one, the first step you want to reach?
    If your goal is to jam with other players who are just jamming on a single chord - not actually playing any songs - then your teacher has the right idea. But that's a very limited - and very rare- scenario; but if that's what you want to do, then stick with your teacher's plan.

    But maybe you have other ideas? Maybe you want to learn to play some songs, maybe join a band playing covers or writing their own songs (or write your own songs). Maybe you want to improvise (play a lead solo) on some existing song. This modal stuff will not help you in any way with any of that - trust me. (OK, I'm only some guy on the internet, but I mean it!)

    Most rock music is not about modes at all. Most rock musicians do not jam on single chords exploring the sound of different modes. Most rock musicians play songs and riffs. When they jam, they jam on a song, or a chord progression (such as a blues).
    Modes CAN sometimes be relevant (as labels for sounds), but rest assured lydian is very rare (unless you're going for some Joe Satriani tunes - he's a fan of lydian). Mixolydian is much more common, even more common than the major scale as the basis for many rock songs. Aeolian and Dorian would come next, but the major scale (Ionian mode) is far and away the most important sound to know - whatever your goal as a musician.

    So tell your teacher you don't feel quite familiar enough with the sound of the major key/scale yet. That's why you have trouble hearing the mode differences.
    But also remember you are employing him. You are the client. In your position I would be making sure he knew what my goals were (long term and short term), and - if he introduced a concept I didn't quite understand - I would expect him to use well-known examples to demonstrate the sound and application of the concept.
    (Eg, if I was introducing the idea of lydian mode, I would probably play the student this track:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SINl5JY7LhI - and I would be pointing out where the #4 of the scale is evident, eg in that opening chord riff.)

    A teacher should NEVER leave you confused at the end of a lesson. But it's not just his responsibility - it's yours to make sure you ask questions. There's no such thing as a dumb question. All good teachers LOVE it when students ask questions, even if it means going back over something again. Every good teacher wants to be sure they are getting across, otherwise they are wasting their breath. As a teacher myself, the worst thing is to see blank faces; the best thing is enthusiastic curiosity. I'm happy to go as slow as a student needs me to; that's what I'm there for after all.


    Quote Originally Posted by RoBbIe G View Post
    I am truly a baby when it comes to theory i must stress, i play mostly all the time and spend very little on reading up so if you could answer this problem that i have in simple terms and tell me how to practice this interval lark it would be a great great help
    I suggest getting that sound of the major scale in your head, as follows:
    1. Play a C major chord.
    2. Play a C major scale from C up to C and back down.
    3. Play the C chord again.
    (You can use any shape for C that you know, and any scale pattern you like - any octave or position - just make sure you start and end on C.)
    Listen in particular to the 4th and 7th of the scale (F and B), and how they move to the notes either side.

    4. Play a G major chord.
    5. Play a G major scale from G up to G and back down.
    6. Play the G chord again.

    And so on for D, A and E major chords and scales. (You can go further to F if you want, but C G D A and E are the most common and useful major keys for guitar music.)

    Make sure you can hear how each major scale - although they obviously start and end on different notes and chords, and have different notes in the scale - has the same "do re me" quality. Despite their differences, they are the same kind of thing (major "keys").

    Now for the modal experiment...

    1. Play your C chord again.
    2. Play the C major scale again.
    3. Play the C major scale, but this time play Bb instead of B. (Of course you need to know where the B is in your scale - then just lower it by one fret.)
    Do this a few times, always returning to C, playing the C chord, and listening to how that Bb note sounds against it. (Play a C7 chord if you want to underline it).
    What you have there is "C mixolydian mode". You should recognise it as a "rock" kind of sound, maybe a "blues" kind of sound.

    Now for lydian...
    1. Play your C chord again.
    2. Play the C major scale again.
    3. Play the C major scale, but this time play F# instead of F.
    Continue as above, making sure you hear C as your tonal centre (root note), and listening to the effect of that F#.
    You will probably not recognise this sound so easily (unless you've been listening to Flying in a Blue Dream...). But that's C lydian mode.
    If you want a C lydian chord, try this:
    Cmaj7#11
    -2-
    -0-
    -0-
    -2-
    -3-
    -x-
    Last edited by JonR; 01-05-2013 at 12:20 PM.

  5. #5
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    1st of all i like to thank all you guys for all your speedy replys to my question.
    JonR, Colour of music & walternewton.....

    Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti Do: "this is what i have read in each reply that i have had on this giving topic..
    I do remember months and months ago when my teacher 1st gave me these modes to practice he did say when you play each mode you should sing this as you practice" but my teacher never really said why sing this as i practice the modes he really didnt go in depth to the reasons why and what benifits there is on doing so...
    As a student or a complete noob at guitar i have it in my head that its all technique in everything that i do and even to this day it is still my strongest point of guitar playing...
    Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti Do: did not make any sence to me at the given time as
    as there was not enough words to cover the full 17 notes of each and every mode i played, i spose i was overwhelmed by the fact that he had given me all 7 modes to play practice with the correct fingering and at the time i thought that this is the "holy grail to guitar playing" lol, how wrong was i at that given time and how was i suppose to know any different..
    Dureing my time with my teacher i have said to him 1 of my 1st routines of practice is 2 play all 7 modes and yes i started off playing Ionian for example in "G A B C D E F G up until the 17th and last note and then in reverse but soon after he was giveing me combinations of playing modes and since then i have never played a mode in 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 order and i spose its these different combinations that has thrown me when it comes to INTERVALS
    I have told my teacher enough times and he should of listen to how cocky i was when i said i can play these modes in these combinations even with out looking at my fret and pick hand "God dam it i have showed him a gd few times and given him plenty of examples of my play so really he should of picked up on it"but then again its my fault also i spose"

    JonR wrote:
    IOW, the 7 modes in the same key (ie the same scale in different patterns or orders) will all sound the same, because they are supposed to. When you are in a key - hearing "do" as tonal centre - then the other modes are irrelevant. This is known as "relative modes" (same notes, different roots).

    Thanks this makes perfect sence to me as i have read "relative modes in this forum so many times but was unsure to what it means, it says exactly what it means as these modes share the same scale but do not share the same root...

    JonR wrote:
    Where the differences are apparent is when you play different modes on the same root. This is known as parallel modes. Same keynote, different scale.

    So the difference between C ionian and F lydian may not be apparent (and is not too important whether it is or isn't). But the difference between C ionian and C lydian should be clear, and IS relevant.
    "Parallel modes" different mode but played on the same key note makes perfect sence when listening to the intervals of modes a lot better than playing them in a relative mode structure as 1 could say

    JonR wrote:
    Question is: what is your main aim in learning to play guitar? Not necessarily your ultimate goal (to be a guitar hero superstar of course ), but your immediate one, the first step you want to reach?

    Good question:
    I so feel that with the age that i have started to learn guitar i have to be realistic and as i have mentioned i love the blues and old classic rock from the 60s B.B. King Eric clapton Chuck berry and Keith Richards to name but a few and also David gilmour: these are who my parents played on the old vinyl recordsback in there day and i guess i have been brought up listening to these artists through out my childhood... btw sorry for mentioning the contents of the above paragraph
    Short term goals are to play a simple chorus or a progression and be able 2 solo over the top of it in the correct manner useing a loop pedal and proberly adding a few other home made intruments just for fun also its always good 2 jam with other guitar players soloing over the top as they play rhythm...
    I am far to old to play like steve vai or joe satriani as these guys has been playing since the age of 6 or 7 and when one starts playing guitar in there late 30s it takes a little bit longer for things to sink in ones mind
    I have brought a lick library dvds on how to play pink floyd and bb king covers along with there seperate backing tracks and these are a lotta fun easy to learn if you take things slow and so easy to forget also
    At the moment my teacher has given me a backing track that he has made wich is great fun as it involves AM7 arpeggio 5th 7th 10th and 12th fret with other minor arpeggio and one is in the lydian mode wich is odd as lydian is in fact a major mode and the progression is A A D A E D A....

    JonR wrote:
    I suggest getting that sound of the major scale in your head, as follows:
    1. Play a C major chord.
    2. Play a C major scale from C up to C and back down.
    3. Play the C chord again.
    (You can use any shape for C that you know, and any scale pattern you like - any octave or position - just make sure you start and end on C.)
    Listen in particular to the 4th and 7th of the scale (F and B), and how they move to the notes either side.
    4. Play a G major chord.
    5. Play a G major scale from G up to G and back down.
    6. Play the G chord again.
    And so on for D, A and E major chords and scales. (You can go further to F if you want, but C G D A and E are the most common and useful major keys for guitar music.)
    Make sure you can hear how each major scale - although they obviously start and end on different notes and chords, and have different notes in the scale - has the same "do re me" quality. Despite their differences, they are the same kind of thing (major "keys").
    Now for the modal experiment...
    1. Play your C chord again.
    2. Play the C major scale again.
    3. Play the C major scale, but this time play Bb instead of B. (Of course you need to know where the B is in your scale - then just lower it by one fret.)
    Do this a few times, always returning to C, playing the C chord, and listening to how that Bb note sounds against it. (Play a C7 chord if you want to underline it).
    What you have there is "C mixolydian mode". You should recognise it as a "rock" kind of sound, maybe a "blues" kind of sound.
    Now for lydian...
    1. Play your C chord again.
    2. Play the C major scale again.
    3. Play the C major scale, but this time play F# instead of F.
    Continue as above, making sure you hear C as your tonal centre (root note), and listening to the effect of that F#.
    You will probably not recognise this sound so easily (unless you've been listening to Flying in a Blue Dream...). But that's C lydian mode.
    If you want a C lydian chord, try this:
    Cmaj7#11
    -2-
    -0-
    -0-
    -2-
    -3-
    -x-
    I have open note pad and copy and paste this whole topic as there is so much usefull stuff that you all have said and it will be such a shame to lose all this valuable information...........
    sorry for such long post But i thank you so much for your effort on posting your replys.... kind regards Robbie

  6. #6
    Registered User Color of Music's Avatar
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    Just an observation, but the thread is titled "Intervals," but that isn't what's being discussed. Was there some confusion on your part? IF you do need help with those (and it isn't necessary to know them), we'll help you out.

    Feel free to ask questions of any kind (music related of course). And you're welcome!

  7. #7
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBbIe G View Post
    JonR wrote:
    Question is: what is your main aim in learning to play guitar? Not necessarily your ultimate goal (to be a guitar hero superstar of course ), but your immediate one, the first step you want to reach?

    Good question:
    I so feel that with the age that i have started to learn guitar i have to be realistic and as i have mentioned i love the blues and old classic rock from the 60s B.B. King Eric clapton Chuck berry and Keith Richards to name but a few and also David gilmour: these are who my parents played on the old vinyl recordsback in there day and i guess i have been brought up listening to these artists through out my childhood... btw sorry for mentioning the contents of the above paragraph
    Hey, no apology needed! That's where I come from too... (I'm probably the same age as your parents, )

    You don't need ANY knowledge of modes to play that stuff. If they didn't know about modes, you can be sure you don't. (Gilmour might have, but not the others.)
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBbIe G View Post
    Short term goals are to play a simple chorus or a progression and be able 2 solo over the top of it in the correct manner useing a loop pedal and proberly adding a few other home made intruments just for fun
    OK. Again, no modal knowledge is necessary for this.

    A "simple chorus or a progression" is likely to consist of chords all harmonised from the same scale. You need to know that scale well (in as many positions as possible), but mainly you need to know all the chords in as many positions as possible. All the notes you need to use are contained in the chords. You don't have to think in scales at all.

    Eg, let's say you have the following (very common) progression:
    G - D - Em - C (on a loop)

    Notes in each chord:
    G = G B D
    D = D F# A
    Em = E G B
    C = C E G

    To improvise on any chord, play a phrase starting on any of the notes in that chord, and including one or both of the others. For passing notes (in between the chord tones) use any notes from the other chords. End your phrase on a note in the chord (which might be a note in the next chord, or whatever chord you end your phrase on).
    IOW, it's like the chord tones form the outline or skeleton of your phrases, which can be filled in with the other notes.
    Code:
      CHORD       PASSING
      TONES        NOTES 
    (Arpeggio) (Extensions)
     1  3  5    2  4  6  7
     G  B  D    A  C  E  F#
     D  F# A    E  G  B  C
     E  G  B    F# A  C  D
     C  E  G    D  F# A  B
    The "7" extension can often be treated as part of the chord arpeggio; and the 2 and 6 on the three major chords sound consonant with the chord, so can often be accented, rather than just quick passing notes. Only the 4 on the major chords is a note likely to stand out as dissonant, which only means you should not sustain it for too long.

    Those notes as a whole happen to spell the G major scale (because that's the key the sequence is in), but you should always work from the chord tones, because that's how to give your phrases a musical logic.
    So the key is know all your chords intimately, everywhere on the neck. (Ie for a G chord, know how to find all the G B D notes everywhere.)
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBbIe G View Post
    also its always good 2 jam with other guitar players soloing over the top as they play rhythm...
    Right. Again, it's all about knowing the chords, and working from them.

    You don't have to restrict yourself to the notes in the chords, btw. For a bit more edginess (or bluesy/jazziness) you can introduce chromatics - eg notes a half-step away from chord tones.
    Here's an expanded chart showing chromatic approach notes - 1/2 step below each chord tone, resolved by moving up to the chord tone.
    Code:
      CHORD       PASSING      CHROMATIC
      TONES        NOTES       APPROACHES
    (Arpeggio) (Extensions) (1/2 step below arp)
     1  3  5    2  4  6  7    
     G  B  D    A  C  E  F#   F# A# C# (F)
     D  F# A    E  G  B  C    C# F  G# (B)
     E  G  B    F# A  C  D    D# F# A# (C#)
     C  E  G    D  F# A  B    B  D# F# (A#)
    The notes in brackets are a half-step below the chord's 7th, which is a useful extra chromatic.

    Here's another way of looking at how it works on the G chord:
    Code:
                              R     2 #2  3  4  #4 5     6 b7  7  R
                  Half-steps: |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |
                 Chord tones: G           B        D              G   
      Diatonic passing notes:    <  A  >    <C  >     <  E > < F#>
    Chromatic approach notes:          A#>      C#>        (F>)F#>
    Arrows show the direction the passing notes and chromatics move on to chord tones. Diatonics can go either way, chromatics (these particular ones) need to go up. (Chromatics can go down too, such as F>E, Ab>G or Eb>D, but these are less common unless part of a longer line. Eg, a line such as D-C#-C-B could be quite common.)

    Notice that some of the "chromatics" are actually diatonic (within the key, part of one of the other chords), but have a chromatic relationship to the chord.

    Modal theory doesn't consider chromaticism at all, but it's crucial to intermediate and advanced soloing.
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBbIe G View Post
    I am far to old to play like steve vai or joe satriani as these guys has been playing since the age of 6 or 7 and when one starts playing guitar in there late 30s it takes a little bit longer for things to sink in ones mind
    Very true!
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBbIe G View Post
    At the moment my teacher has given me a backing track that he has made wich is great fun as it involves AM7 arpeggio 5th 7th 10th and 12th fret with other minor arpeggio and one is in the lydian mode wich is odd as lydian is in fact a major mode and the progression is A A D A E D A....
    OK, that's a blues progression in A major, so I don't quite get the "lydian" idea. Is he suggesting lydian mode on each chord (A lydian, D lydian, E lydian)? That's an interesting idea, very Joe Satriani .
    I don't understand how the arpeggios fit though.... Do you mean "Amaj7" arpeggio? And do you mean moving the same shape, or finding other Amaj7 arps in different positions?
    Last edited by JonR; 01-06-2013 at 12:04 PM.

  8. #8
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    JonR wrote:
    To improvise on any chord, play a phrase starting on any of the notes in that chord, and including one or both of the others. For passing notes (in between the chord tones) use any notes from the other chords. End your phrase on a note in the chord (which might be a note in the next chord, or whatever chord you end your phrase on).
    IOW, it's like the chord tones form the outline or skeleton of your phrases, which can be filled in with the other notes.

    CHORD PASSING
    TONES NOTES
    (Arpeggio) (Extensions)
    1 3 5 2 4 6 7
    G B D A C E F#
    D F# A E G B C
    E G B F# A C D
    C E G D F# A B

    So to be able to improvise over a 3 chord progression i can use the individual notes that makes up the 3 chords and solo over the top and to spice things up a tad i can introduce chromatics wich is a 1/2 from my chord note wich in tern will give it a kinda bluesy jazziness feel


    JonR wrote:
    Notice that some of the "chromatics" are actually diatonic (within the key, part of one of the other chords), but have a chromatic relationship to the chord.

    I always wondered what diatonic actually meant and have seen it in many posts and replys on this forum "so its a note that is in the chord progression that i have used and i am well within my rights to use this diatonic note being that its a 1/2 step from my chord tone and use it as a chromatic note

    JonR wrote:

    Here's another way of looking at how it works on the G chord:

    Code:
    R 2 #2 3 4 #4 5 6 b7 7 R Half-steps: | | | | | | | | | | | | | Chord tones: G B D G Diatonic passing notes: < A > <C > < E > < F#>Chromatic approach notes: A#> C#> (F>)F#>
    Arrows show the direction the passing notes and chromatics move on to chord tones. Diatonics can go either way, chromatics (these particular ones) need to go up. (Chromatics can go down too, such as F>E, Ab>G or Eb>D, but these are less common unless part of a longer line. Eg, a line such as D-C#-C-B could be quite common.)

    So there for to keep things simple for me i can play either side of my chord tone by 1/2 note if its a diatonic note "within" the chord progression and when i play chromatics in this case i play these up from the chord tone "but playing chromatics on either side of my chord tone is also possible but in this example of my 3 chord progression this isnt the case but is "possible" ok thats enough said

    JonR wrote:

    Modal theory doesn't consider chromaticism at all, but it's crucial to intermediate and advanced soloing.

    Given enough time with the info that you have provided i shall return once i feel that i am comfortable and have exhausted all the possibility of putting all that is written into practice

    JonR wrote:

    OK, that's a blues progression in A major, so I don't quite get the "lydian" idea. Is he suggesting lydian mode on each chord (A lydian, D lydian, E lydian)? That's an interesting idea, very Joe Satriani .
    I don't understand how the arpeggios fit though.... Do you mean "Amaj7" arpeggio? And do you mean moving the same shape, or finding other Amaj7 arps in different positions?

    Very hard for me to explain what these arppegios are in writeing and i am unsure how to even upload them but i will copy and paste the link of diagrams from google so feel free to look (you must set google to images)

    Diagram 1
    http://www.spytunes.com/advanced/min...ggio-gm7-shape

    In this such diagram my teacher has said that this arpeggio fits into lydian mode even tho the arpeggio is a minor?? i have 2 more diagrams but can not find them as easily so not to worry

    thank you for your replys you have written as i find that i have learnt so much even before i have put what is written into practice and also your explenations of music vocabulary is another lesson in its self that has actually given me a better understanding of what is written in this forum by experienced teachers musician like you self......

  9. #9
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBbIe G View Post
    I always wondered what diatonic actually meant and have seen it in many posts and replys on this forum "so its a note that is in the chord progression that i have used and i am well within my rights to use this diatonic note being that its a 1/2 step from my chord tone and use it as a chromatic note
    essentially yes. "Diatonic" (in this sense) means "within the key", ie any of the 7 notes in the scale the chords are harmonised from.
    "Chromatic" means any of the other 5 notes.
    But "chromatic" can also mean "in semitones or half-steps", as in "the chromatic scale" (all 12 notes).
    So an F# note in key of G is both diatonic to the key, and "chromatic" in relation to a G note (in a G, C or Em chord).

    So although it works as a "chromatic approach" (for a G, C, Em or Am7 chord), it won't sound as "outside" - in key of G major - as a fully chromatic note does.
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBbIe G View Post
    JonR wrote:

    Here's another way of looking at how it works on the G chord:

    Code:
    R 2 #2 3 4 #4 5 6 b7 7 R Half-steps: | | | | | | | | | | | | | Chord tones: G B D G Diatonic passing notes: < A > <C > < E > < F#>Chromatic approach notes: A#> C#> (F>)F#>
    Arrows show the direction the passing notes and chromatics move on to chord tones. Diatonics can go either way, chromatics (these particular ones) need to go up. (Chromatics can go down too, such as F>E, Ab>G or Eb>D, but these are less common unless part of a longer line. Eg, a line such as D-C#-C-B could be quite common.)

    So there for to keep things simple for me i can play either side of my chord tone by 1/2 note if its a diatonic note "within" the chord progression and when i play chromatics in this case i play these up from the chord tone "but playing chromatics on either side of my chord tone is also possible but in this example of my 3 chord progression this isnt the case but is "possible" ok thats enough said
    Don't forget that you "can" play anything you like!

    The trick is to know the sounds of all the options.

    1. chord tones = most consonant or "inside" sound
    2. diatonic passing notes (including chromatic approaches from notes in the key ) = more dissonant, less "inside"
    3. chromatic notes (outside the key) = most dissonant or "outside" sounding.

    The art is to balance these sounds. When everything is "inside" (or fully diatonic) it will all be OK, but can sound bland. If OTOH you use too much chromaticism it will just sound "wrong".

    So you should use chromaticism like spices or herbs in a recipe - to add some edge or bite when you feel it's needed.
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBbIe G View Post
    JonR wrote:

    OK, that's a blues progression in A major, so I don't quite get the "lydian" idea. Is he suggesting lydian mode on each chord (A lydian, D lydian, E lydian)? That's an interesting idea, very Joe Satriani .
    I don't understand how the arpeggios fit though.... Do you mean "Amaj7" arpeggio? And do you mean moving the same shape, or finding other Amaj7 arps in different positions?

    Very hard for me to explain what these arppegios are in writeing and i am unsure how to even upload them but i will copy and paste the link of diagrams from google so feel free to look (you must set google to images)

    Diagram 1
    http://www.spytunes.com/advanced/min...ggio-gm7-shape
    OK thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBbIe G View Post
    In this such diagram my teacher has said that this arpeggio fits into lydian mode even tho the arpeggio is a minor?? i have 2 more diagrams but can not find them as easily so not to worry
    Yes - for that pattern to give you a lydian sound on an A major chord, you would play it with the 6th string note on either 4th fret or 16th fret, making it a G#m7 arpeggio. IOW, put the root of the pattern a half-step down from the root of the chord.
    That's the only places where the pattern will give you the D# note you need to make the A chord sound lydian.
    And personally I might choose a different G#m7 pattern, such as:
    Code:
      1   2   3   4   5   6   7
    |---|---|---|-G#|---|---|-B-|---|
    |---|---|---|-D#|---|---|-F#|---|
    |---|---|---|-B-|---|-C#|---|---|
    |---|---|---|-F#|---|-G#|---|---|
    |---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    |---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    But perhaps that's one of the others your teacher gave you?

  10. #10
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    Jon wrote

    And personally I might choose a different G#m7 pattern, such as:

    1 2 3 4 5 6 7
    |---|---|---|-G#|---|---|-B-|---|
    |---|---|---|-D#|---|---|-F#|---|
    |---|---|---|-B-|---|-C#|---|---|
    |---|---|---|-F#|---|-G#|---|---|
    |---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    |---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|


    But perhaps that's one of the others your teacher gave you?

    No he did not give me this and i havent seen this 1 before "but i am only just learning these arpeggios and im not sure but there could be more to come perhaps?? I did state in my previous post that these arpeggio are infact Minor and not Major for as i sure he said that the patterns as follows will fit into Aolian Phrygian Dorian Modes?

    Diagram 1

    1 2 3 4 5 6 7
    |---|---|---|-A-|---|---|-C-|---|
    |---|---|---|-E-|---|---|-G-|---|
    |---|---|---|-C-|---|---|---|---|
    |---|---|---|-G-|---|-A-|---|---|
    |---|---|---|---|---|-E-|---|---|
    |---|---|---|-A-|---|---|-C-|---|

    I play this on frets 5,10,12


    Diagram 2

    1 2 3 4 5 6 7
    |---|---|---|-A-|---|---|-C-|---|
    |---|---|---|---|-F-|---|---|---|
    |---|---|---|-C-|---|-D-|---|---|
    |---|---|---|---|---|-A-|---|---|
    |---|---|---|-D-|---|---|-F-|---|
    |---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

    Fret 12,5.7

    Diagram 3

    1 2 3 4 5 6 12
    |---|---|-C-|---|---|---|-E-|---|
    |---|---|---|---|-A-|---|---|---|
    |---|---|---|-E-|---|---|-G-|---|
    |---|---|---|---|-C-|---|---|---|
    |---|---|---|---|---|---|-A-|---|
    |---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

    I only play this on fret 12

    So are all these Major arpeggios??

    The backing track is A A D A E D A and i can play these arpeggio starting on the correct root note as and when the chord change, also i play these on any given note on the correct chord change also......
    he has given me Am7/Dm7/Gm7/Em7 chords played over the 5th 7th 10th 12th frets these chords are 2 different shapes that i play with hybrid picking pattern!!

    I hope you can follow what i have written as it has been a real pain to do these diagrams the way they are....
    So my question is this: Am i really wasting my time in learning these modes, these patterns "If my principle goal is to learn "Rock & Blues and the fundamentals of the guitar?? I must stress i have no intension of being the next steve vai but it would be nice to have enough knowledge or legroom so that in time i could i can develope and my own style of play...

  11. #11
    Registered User Color of Music's Avatar
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    Well, of course, the specific modes you mention will fit because that is where those chords come from:

    I = Ionian
    ii = Dorian
    iii = Phrygian
    IV (#iv) = Lydian
    V = Mixolydian
    vi = Aeolian
    vii = Locrian

    However, just looking at that progression, I get a sense of key. Once this happens, the mode or feel of it is abolished. (ie: The v-i; it'd really say no to modes if that were an E or E7 of some kind - V(7)-i)

    Now, if you were using the A, D or E (personally, I'd go with the A) as a drone, then you'd get a sense of the particular mode's sound. I don't remember where the video was posted, but the teacher demonstrated each modal sound by picking a drone (A, I believe) and played all seven major scales against it.

    As for as you thinking that you're wasting time, I wouldn't say you are; however, it doesn't appears as if you're really at that point yet. As JonR stated, Modes are treated like they are something special/magical (sort of like perfect, er, absolute pitch) and it's not. Whem it comes to improvisation/soloing in general, yes, there's much more than running scales/notes/patterns.

    Again, I don't you're there yet, but I also think your instructor may not be helping. Not to say that he or she isn't trying, but if a teacher teaches it "wrong," by that, I mean, in a way that's confusing, then you'll learn it that way. Yet, I also think you may be letting your frustration get the better of you. This is never good and having both things happen is never good.

    Do not get discouraged as you've come to a place that is very helpful to point you in the right direction. I believe if you instead learn something (modes/playing modally in this case) for what it is instead of what it isn't ...

    Akin, to what folks deem those "cool chords" as jazz chords, they aren't such chords whatsoever. They're just used in a way to make them sound "cool/jazzy," nor are they restricted to just the jazz genre and sub-genres.

    Here's an example:

    Conventionally when modes are taught (ie: on piano):

    Show me Bb Mix. They will say: "Play all the notes from the Bb scale starting on the fifth note (in this case F)." This sounds very confusing because most hear the second part and do the second part forgetting the first part. However, once you learn the unconventional way (ie: Finding the color tones) of each mode), you won't have a problem.

    Mixo's color tone is the b7; therefore, Bb Mixo is: Bb-C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab. Now, learning the other way isn't wrong because when harmonizing the major scale with sevenths, knowing that Mixo comes from the fifth degree, Bb7 is the V of what key? Eb! But again, "Play the scale (said scale), but starting on ..." sounds confusing (because it is, IMO). Yet, that is the traditional way of teaching modes.

    Like I said, earlier if the misconception of modes being something magical didn't exist, lots of people (beginners especially) would have an easier time and wanna take time to devour and digest the concept of modes (and yeah, not having a goal to be like one of the greats so soon would help, too).

    Therefore, IMO, you aren't wasting your time; you're just looking in the wrong places! Don't give up, but don't weigh yourself down either.

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