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Thread: Arp fingering

  1. #46
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    Jed, this is what I intended to explain but without thinking in finger nšs.
    I was just mentioning pattern as geometric shapes.
    Good, that's a great observation. This fact (this is in fact much more than just an observation since it is always true) will prove very valuable to you as you work to learn the scales relative to the 2-octave arpeggios and the 2-octave arpeggios fingerings by themselves. If you also add the chord spellings to your scale and arp practice - this is also a great way to learn the fretboard as well as chord voicings.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    In this exercise I never considered which fingers to use, only patterns and intervals. Even though, what I could learn from it so far is a great help to simplify and organize the information that I can use in a guitar fretboard.
    That's good to hear. I hope you are starting to understand now why I was so enthusiastic about this type of analysis being very good for you. Everything you can discover about these arp patterns will have far-reaching implications for the rest of your guitar playing and your understanding of music theory as well.

    cheers,
    Last edited by Jed; 06-12-2011 at 03:38 AM.

  2. #47
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    Keep going deep - but try really hard to use standard musical terms and notation for your work so that you don't end up building a vocabulary that no one else can follow.
    This has always been one of my main handicaps: the use of correct terminology. Any sugestions about how to get it right?

    Also, keep looking for ways to reduce all of this data down to the fewest unique truths about arpeggio fingerings. Once you get down to the smallest number of truths that satisfy all variations - you'll have finalized the analysis.
    Well, I don't know where to start now to get to that point. I will consider now the fingers to be used. Probably I'll find something more.
    But I have a doubt...how do I know which fingers to use? In the files I've seen they only mention the first finger/string.

    One other note, when you refer to major scale fingerings by number - you will lose people since there is no standard numbering system for the various fingerings patterns (shapes) in any major scale fingering system. I typically refer to a fingering pattern by the - Key / starting note / string / finger - combination.

    For example what you call major scale fingering #1 - I refer to a the C major scale starting on C at the 6th string with the 1st finger. I know my description is long compared to your shorthand - but my description is absolutely clear and has only one meaning given a common major scale fingering system.
    I've used the naming that I've found in one of the files (the same file in the last sheet, in the excel file I've posted.

    I hope you are starting to understand now why I was so enthusiastic about this type of analysis being very good for you. Everything you can discover about these arp patterns will have far-reaching implications for the rest of your guitar playing and your understanding of music theory as well.
    I never doubt about the importance of the exercises you've proposed. What happens, sometimes, are some minor divergences in the methods and some lack of understanding about the way how I should look at theory.
    I believe, not only for music, that the knowledge about anything it's not only to know everything but also how to look at it. In this aspect, our "discussions" have teached me something about how to look to theory.

  3. #48
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    This has always been one of my main handicaps: the use of correct terminology. Any sugestions about how to get it right?
    Just keep trying and check back here on terminology before you get too deep into your own language.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    Well, I don't know where to start now to get to that point. I will consider now the fingers to be used. Probably I'll find something more.
    From what I can tell of the file you posted, you've started step #7 but not finished that step. Unfortunately, I have defined step #7 two opposing ways - so here is the corrected description:

    #7 - Assemble all the major triad arpeggios (for all major triads (C, F & G)) and delete the duplicates. In this case two arpeggios are duplicates if the geometric pattern is the same, irrespective of the actual notes / scale degrees. So it's possible to have, for example, the same 2-octave arpeggio pattern (fingering / shape) for C major triad as for F major and for G major. As long as the pattern / shape is the same - then it's the same arpeggio fingering. This should allow you to greatly reduce the number of patterns / shapes / fingerings that you have to deal with.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    But I have a doubt...how do I know which fingers to use? In the files I've seen they only mention the first finger/string.
    I would hold off on this part until after you've deleted the duplicates. Once you get to that point, sorting out any fingering (specific finger to pattern note location) is a simple process.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    I never doubt about the importance of the exercises you've proposed. What happens, sometimes, are some minor divergences in the methods and some lack of understanding about the way how I should look at theory. I believe, not only for music, that the knowledge about anything it's not only to know everything but also how to look at it. In this aspect, our "discussions" have teached me something about how to look to theory.
    In that case, to stay on point - you should think of these arpeggios in terms of intervals relative to the chord root. Note that we had you develop these arpeggios based on their spelling (note spelling) relative to the key's scale degrees. The key's scale degrees were useful for that purpose but now you should look at the patterns / shapes your found for the 2-octave arpeggios in terms of the chord and it's chord tones - example For C major, 1 3 5 = C E G. For F major, 1 3 5 = F A C. For G major, 1 3 5 = G B D.

    Remember the goal now is to find the duplicates among the 27 major triad 2-octave arpeggio fingerings that you've found. You may find that more than half of those arpeggio fingerings / patterns are duplicates.

    cheers,
    Last edited by Jed; 06-12-2011 at 11:40 PM.

  4. #49
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    #7 - Assemble all the major triad arpeggios (for all major triads (C, F & G)) and delete the duplicates. In this case two arpeggios are duplicates if the geometric pattern is the same, irrespective of the actual notes / scale degrees. So it's possible to have, for example, the same 2-octave arpeggio pattern (fingering / shape) for C major triad as for F major and for G major. As long as the pattern / shape is the same - then it's the same arpeggio fingering. This should allow you to greatly reduce the number of patterns / shapes / fingerings that you have to deal with.
    I've found that the geometric pattern for all major chords is the same. You can find an example of what I'm saying in the excel file, in the sheet called "Major Arps Study" (there's a missing 4 degree in the IV Chord pattern.
    And the same happens with all minor chords and also with diminished (although in this case there are not any duplicated patterns).

    Is this what you are talking about?

    Note: when I say patterns I'm refering to the geometry only, no finger nšs involved.
    Last edited by rbarata; 06-13-2011 at 12:29 AM.

  5. #50
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    I've found that the geometric pattern for all major chords is the same. You can find an example of what I'm saying in the excel file, in the sheet called "Major Arps Study" (there's a missing 4 degree in the IV Chord pattern.
    And the same happens with all minor chords and also with diminished (although in this case there are not any duplicated patterns).

    Is this what you are talking about?

    Note: when I say patterns I'm refering to the geometry only, no finger nšs involved.
    That's is what I'm talking about but your sheet called "Major arp Study" only shows one arpeggio fingering applied across three chords. I'm looking for a listing that shows all possible patterns / fingerings for the major triads, another for the minor triads and another for the diminished triads. This is the simplification that I've been describing.

  6. #51
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    Well, in the file there's a sheet called "Major Arps", another called "Minor Arps" and nother called "Dim Arps".
    Basically, I have to pick each one and delete all the duplicated patterns, regardless of the chord they're in?

  7. #52
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    Well, in the file there's a sheet called "Major Arps", another called "Minor Arps" and nother called "Dim Arps".
    Basically, I have to pick each one and delete all the duplicated patterns, regardless of the chord they're in?
    yup.

  8. #53
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    I see...after a certain point the Chord V returns to the first pattern...they start to duplicate.
    Ok, I will have to use excel online, I don't have it at home.

  9. #54
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    That's is what I'm talking about but your sheet called "Major arp Study" only shows one arpeggio fingering applied across three chords. I'm looking for a listing that shows all possible patterns / fingerings for the major triads, another for the minor triads and another for the diminished triads. This is the simplification that I've been describing.
    After looking at this again I'm not sure if I understood correctly what you asked.
    If I think only in terms of geometric patterns, by deleting the duplicates I will get the first 7 fingerings because they will be present in the Chords I, IV and V.
    If I think in terms of chord tones, I will get only 3 geometric patterns that correspond to the Root position, 1st and 2nd inversions.

    DUPLICATES.jpg

    I kept using the #nš for the fingering because the nomencalture you sue it's not very clear to me. I suppose it will after knowing which fingers to use.

  10. #55
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    After looking at this again I'm not sure if I understood correctly what you asked.
    This seems to be a common theme with our exchanges . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    If I think only in terms of geometric patterns, by deleting the duplicates I will get the first 7 fingerings because they will be present in the Chords I, IV and V.
    Where are the diagrams?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    If I think in terms of chord tones, I will get only 3 geometric patterns that correspond to the Root position, 1st and 2nd inversions.
    How is this a geometric pattern?

    If you are confused as to what I want, maybe you should look at all of the ways you can simplify / organize / understand the information that you found from the exercise of finding all of the 2-octave variations of arpeggios diatonic to C major. This exercise has significant and far-reaching benefits, many of which are beyond your current perceptions.

  11. #56
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    This seems to be a common theme with our exchanges . . .
    I believe this is a definition of what is considered as duplicated and you must understand that it's a bit difficult (at least to me) to find anything if you don't know what you're looking for. Somethings are evident while others are not. It all depends on the person. What is evident to you might not be for me and vice-versa.

    If I think only in terms of geometric patterns, by deleting the duplicates I will get the first 7 fingerings because they will be present in the Chords I, IV and V.


    The diagrams are here:

    Arps_Rev.1.pdf

    So, in my interpretation, each geometric pattern is triplicated: in the Chord I, in the IV and in the V.
    So, if I delete all the repeated patterns I will get the original 7 patterns.
    Hence my doubt...what's the point to get again the original 7 patterns?
    Probably I'm not deleting the intended duplicates (although in the attachement I haven't deleted anything).
    Last edited by rbarata; 06-14-2011 at 11:12 PM.

  12. #57
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    I believe this is a definition of what is considered as duplicated and you must understand that it's a bit difficult (at least to me) to find anything if you don't know what you're looking for. Somethings are evident while others are not. It all depends on the person. What is evident to you might not be for me and vice-versa.
    What I see when I look at these things has nothing to do with you, nor does what I see matter in this case. What matters, is what you see. When you first looked at these you didn't see any similarity. Later you noticed that the I, IV & V chord use the same set of 2-octave arpeggio fingerings, each over different major scale fingerings.

    That's how it works, the more you look and the more you work with these things - the more things you'll see. It doesn't no good for me to tell you what to look for because you will only learn by discovering these things for yourself. I cannot teach you what I know - all I can do is help you to look at the kinds of things I've found valuable. But like a piece of artwork, we each see different things when we look at the art.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    So, in my interpretation, each geometric pattern is triplicated: in the Chord I, in the IV and in the V. So, if I delete all the repeated patterns I will get the original 7 patterns. Hence my doubt...what's the point to get again the original 7 patterns? Probably I'm not deleting the intended duplicates (although in the attachement I haven't deleted anything).
    0) The point of the seven forms is that those forms work over every major triad that exists. You started this thread looking for triad arpeggio fingering advise. I've shown you a system that reaches well beyond your original post. If the value of those forms isn't self-evident to you that I guess I've been wasting my time and yours.

    1) You only listed seven forms, some of the fingerings you listed are more than 2-octaves. Once you correct your form listing down to just fingerings variations of (no more than) 2-octaves - you will have more than seven 2-octave major triad arpeggio fingerings. The number of 2-octave fingerings has significance - so sort this out.

    2) once you have determined the correct number of (not more than) 2-octave fingerings - you may notice other things / other ways to organize that number of 2-octave arpeggio patterns.

    3) The 2-octave arpeggios fingerings are in-fact the same for the I, IV and V chord. This is because any arpeggio that works for one major triad will work for any major triad as long as you are at the right location on the fretboard.

    4) By extension, this means that you can apply any of these 2-octave fingerings to any major triad root to play a 2-octave major triad arpeggio for that root. Further, once you have internalized these (more than seven) 2-octave major triad arpeggios - you will have (more than seven) fingering options for any 2-octave major triad fingering you might need.

    5) You may want to try to visual these major triad arpeggios within the various major scale fingering pattern that they come from (each of the 2-octave major triad arpeggios could come from one of three different major scale fingerings - depending on whether the chord in question was the I, IV or V chord).

    6) There is no set list of things you should be able to see when you look at these. You will see what you see and nothing more. But after working with these 2-octave arpeggio fingerings for some period of time, you may start to see some additional things - or not. It's up to you. Your perception will change as you start to learn more and more. That's how the study of music works. You learn something and see it in a small, isolated way. Later you'll start to see that same thing in different ways, with greater overall significance, making connections to new things. And on and on it goes. It is the learning process. You have to learn to teach yourself. I'm just trying to give you some tools you can use towards that end.

    cheers,

  13. #58
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    0) The point of the seven forms is that those forms work over every major triad that exists. You started this thread looking for triad arpeggio fingering advise. I've shown you a system that reaches well beyond your original post. If the value of those forms isn't self-evident to you that I guess I've been wasting my time and yours.
    When I asked what's the point was considering what I have already learned from this exercise. To reach the same 7 patterns felt like returning to the beginning.

    1) You only listed seven forms, some of the fingerings you listed are more than 2-octaves. Once you correct your form listing down to just fingerings variations of (no more than) 2-octaves - you will have more than seven 2-octave major triad arpeggio fingerings. The number of 2-octave fingerings has significance - so sort this out.
    Do you mean those "simetrical" patterns that allow two possible fingerings?
    There's an "extra" chord tone in each one of them. I have deleted them already.

    2) once you have determined the correct number of (not more than) 2-octave fingerings - you may notice other things / other ways to organize that number of 2-octave arpeggio patterns.
    Considering the above, there are 9 possible patterns, right?

    3) The 2-octave arpeggios fingerings are in-fact the same for the I, IV and V chord. This is because any arpeggio that works for one major triad will work for any major triad as long as you are at the right location on the fretboard.
    Right!

    4) By extension, this means that you can apply any of these 2-octave fingerings to any major triad root to play a 2-octave major triad arpeggio for that root. Further, once you have internalized these (more than seven) 2-octave major triad arpeggios - you will have (more than seven) fingering options for any 2-octave major triad fingering you might need.
    That's one of the things I've noticed at first.

    5) You may want to try to visual these major triad arpeggios within the various major scale fingering pattern that they come from (each of the 2-octave major triad arpeggios could come from one of three different major scale fingerings - depending on whether the chord in question was the I, IV or V chord).
    That's something I did noticed before but I haven't studied it in detail. That's a good exercise.

    6) There is no set list of things you should be able to see when you look at these. You will see what you see and nothing more. But after working with these 2-octave arpeggio fingerings for some period of time, you may start to see some additional things - or not. It's up to you. Your perception will change as you start to learn more and more. That's how the study of music works. You learn something and see it in a small, isolated way. Later you'll start to see that same thing in different ways, with greater overall significance, making connections to new things. And on and on it goes. It is the learning process. You have to learn to teach yourself. I'm just trying to give you some tools you can use towards that end.
    I understand that and I appreciate your guidance. Sometimes it's complicated but in the end it is always worthing.

  14. #59
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    Do you mean those "simetrical" patterns that allow two possible fingerings? There's an "extra" chord tone in each one of them. I have deleted them already.
    Well they should not be deleted but they should be "split" into two 2-octave triad arpeggio fingerings. That two 2-octave fingerings come from the same major scale fingering is a good thing to know, but they are still two unique 2-octave triad arpeggio fingerings.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    Considering the above, there are 9 possible patterns, right?
    Yes, there are nine. So what is the significance of having nine 2-octave fingerings for one triad. How might those nine 2-octave arpeggio fingerings be organized / categorized further?

    Don't forget to do the same analysis for the minor and diminished triad 2-octave arpeggios. Once complete, you should assemble all possible 2-octave triad arpeggios organized first by chord type and then by inversion within each type.

    Among the thirteen keys from six sharps to six flats:

    How many unique (different root note) major chords are there?
    List out the possible major triad root names from sharpest to flattest.

    How many unique (different root note) minor chords are there?
    List out the possible minor triad root names from sharpest to flattest.

    How many unique (different root note) diminished chords are there?
    List out the possible diminished triad root names from sharpest to flattest.

    How many unique (root note & chord type (major minor and diminished combined)) triads are there among the thirteen keys from six sharps to six flats?

    What's special about those thirteen keys? Why not just consider twelve keys or fifteen keys?
    Last edited by Jed; 06-15-2011 at 02:06 PM.

  15. #60
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    Yes, there are nine. So what is the significance of having nine 2-octave fingerings for one triad.
    Apart from the 9 different possibilities available, now I can't see any other. In the future probably I will notice something more.

    How might those nine 2-octave arpeggio fingerings be organized / categorized further?
    Well, as I said before, they can be organized according their inversion. Another probable possibility, which must be confirme, is their relationship with the different scale fingerings they come from.

    Among the thirteen keys from six sharps to six flats:
    Why only from six sharps to six flats? Why not consider the C# Major and Cb Major scales too?

    How many unique (different root note) major chords are there?
    List out the possible major triad root names from sharpest to flattest.

    How many unique (different root note) minor chords are there?
    List out the possible minor triad root names from sharpest to flattest.

    How many unique (different root note) diminished chords are there?
    List out the possible diminished triad root names from sharpest to flattest.

    How many unique (root note & chord type (major minor and diminished combined)) triads are there among the thirteen keys from six sharps to six flats?

    What's special about those thirteen keys? Why not just consider twelve keys or fifteen keys?
    This a whole summer job! It will be a pleasure.

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