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Thread: Arp fingering

  1. #31
    Registered User xyzzy's Avatar
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    I've attempted to project Jed's suggestions for 7 arp shapes onto a fretboard graphic using OOo Calc (freeware Excel workalike) to show 7 arps of C major. Similar to rbarata's chart but in one of the other dimensions. I will probably do this for a few more keys now that I've figured out a few things. C major first, Eb will be next

    ETA: the uploaded chart has been updated to reflect the fingering change Jed mentions in the following post
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by xyzzy; 06-08-2011 at 12:11 AM.

  2. #32
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzzy View Post
    I've attempted to project Jed's suggestions for 7 arp shapes onto a fretboard graphic using OOo Calc (freeware Excel workalike) to show 7 arps of C major. Similar to rbarata's chart but in one of the other dimensions. I will probably do this for a few more keys now that I've figured out a few things. C major first, Eb will be next
    I think you will enjoy where this goes . . . .

    I use a different fingering on the C major arp that starts with G (low E string) with the 1st finger. I finger that arp as a 1st finger stretch.
    Last edited by Jed; 06-07-2011 at 11:25 PM.

  3. #33
    Registered User xyzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jed View Post
    I think you will enjoy where this goes . . . .

    I use a different fingering on the C major arp that starts with G (low E string) with the 1st finger. I finger that arp as a 1st finger stretch.
    Thanks for reviewing and catching that so quickly. I can see now where that info was clearly implied in your tables and I had missed it. I've updated my own chart, and have replaced the uploaded one above ... so now it's onward to Eb, which is fast becoming a favorite key of mine.

    I think you're right that I'll enjoy where this goes. I don't have all that much time invested in CAGED, particularly when it comes to scales and arps. I need to get more systematic, and I'm sure those nice professors down in the back bay didn't decide on seven positions rather than five for no good reason ...
    Last edited by xyzzy; 06-08-2011 at 12:13 AM.

  4. #34
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    Ok, finished step 6) and have seen what happened to dim triads after at the end of step 7).
    I came up with 9 arps, no duplicates. Is it supposed to have duplicates in dim triads arps? but some of them overlap the previous.

    For Major triads I've found 27 arps, and also no duplicates.

    Just checking if I'm doing it correctly before proceed but I think I don't know what are those duplicates because I can't find any.
    Unless...what I noticed is that for the same chord (I, II, III...) the arps overlap in one half-tone (the last and the first, considering two "adjacent" arps) and the second is incrementd of a whole tone relatively to the previous.
    Last edited by rbarata; 06-08-2011 at 04:11 PM.

  5. #35
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    Ok, finished step 6) and have seen what happened to dim triads after at the end of step 7).
    I came up with 9 arps, no duplicates. Is it supposed to have duplicates in dim triads arps? but some of them overlap the previous.
    No, you are right. For the Dim arps there are only 9 arps total (each of which will over lap with two other arps).

    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    For Major triads I've found 27 arps, and also no duplicates.

    Just checking if I'm doing it correctly before proceed but I think I don't know what are those duplicates because I can't find any.
    Unless...what I noticed is that for the same chord (I, II, III...) the arps overlap in one half-tone (the last and the first, considering two "adjacent" arps) and the second is incrementd of a whole tone relatively to the previous.
    Well you've finished step #6. Don't worry about where this is going and don't worry about making a mistake - you'll learn stuff even if you don't do it exactly the way I've asked - it's a no-lose scenario. Just continue on with the next two steps #7 & #8. I promise, you will see the duplicates that I spoke about. You just haven't seen that because you haven't gotten that far yet. Patience my young padawan. The force is strong in you, but you must learn to control your impulses and practice patience before you can become a Jedi.

    For step #7: Take the 27 major scale arps that you found (for Cmaj, Fmaj & Gmaj combined). Organize then on a a series of fretboard maps / arpeggio diagrams. Each series of maps / diagrams would illustrate the nine 2-octave arpeggios for just one major triad - so one series each for each of the Cmaj, Fmaj & Gmaj triads. Use a format similar to the attachment from your post #23 - but for all of the arpeggios for just one triad / chord.

    For step #8: Follow the directions above (for the major triad arps) but this time for the 27 minor triad arps. Organize then on a a series of fretboard maps / arpeggio diagrams. Each series of maps / diagrams would illustrate the nine 2-octave arpeggios for just one minor triad - so one series each for each of the Dmin, Emin & Amin triads. Use a format similar to the attachment from your post #23 - but for all of the arpeggios for just one triad / chord

    Step #9: Same as above, but for diminished triad arps.

    Step #10: Post all of that stuff and let's talk about what you see, what I see and how you can use this information to make beautiful music.
    Last edited by Jed; 06-08-2011 at 09:31 PM.

  6. #36
    Registered User xyzzy's Avatar
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    Well, Jed, you've certainly got my interest up. I now have my suspicions where the duplicates you mention will come from. I'll know more after I make this next chart I have in mind ...

    edited to add: nope, not what I thought.
    Last edited by xyzzy; 06-09-2011 at 02:21 AM.

  7. #37
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    Just to tell that I'm reaching some conclusions with this exercise.

    About step #10:

    Step #10: Post all of that stuff
    As soon as I finish my analysis I will. But it's a huge amount of info.

  8. #38
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    Just to tell that I'm reaching some conclusions with this exercise.
    Observations are best (better than conclusions), they involve no judgement calls and no prejudices. The more observations the better. Some of the things you observe will mean nothing, other things will be worth their weight in gold but you've got to dump out the whole drawer to find the valuable stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    As soon as I finish my analysis I will. But it's a huge amount of info.
    It is a lot of data, . . . it is also the complete data set for every triadic projection diatonic to that one key. By the time you've finished your initial analysis, you will have looked more deeply into the harmonic structures of that key than many guitarists we see in a life time. Nobody said this was going to be easy. What this method is - is thorough. Nothing is left uncovered, nothing held back. You wanted to see the big picture . . well there it is.

    Now your work can start as you look for patterns to simplify this information. What you have is an analysis that illustrates the symmetry relative to notes / chord tones for each triad. Now look for the symmetry of patterns (both intervallic and geometric) to see the duplicates that I mentioned. Later you might see partial symmetries relative to shared chord tones across related chords. This is what music looks like on the guitar. Now you know why so few people actually understand the instrument. "to know a thing is to understand the thing"

    EDit: BTW don't try to memorize all of these just yet. Look at the diagrams, search out the patterns, develop an understanding of why this is what those 2-octave arps look like. Develop some "mental pictures". Make some connections to chord forms and scale forms you already know. This effort, this method - is about providing an overview - so that your actual studies and practice can be driven by your (now) educated opinion and perspectives on what, how and how much of this you want to internalize. It's about you being able to teach yourself at your pace and at your discretion.
    Last edited by Jed; 06-09-2011 at 07:30 PM.

  9. #39
    Registered User xyzzy's Avatar
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    Jed -- I've been compiling what I think should be the same set of scales in the alternative way of organizing them --- One sheet for each of the 7 diatonic chords of C major, each sheet showing that one triad arpeggio in each of the 7 positions. If I understand what you are telling rbarata to do, this should be another way of organizing the same 49 (or 63) arpeggio shapes.

    I wanted to tag along in the exercise, without just simply duplicating rbarata's efforts in making those charts. I'm 5/7ths of the way done, and (I think) starting to see at least one example of the kind of thing you're talking about.

  10. #40
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzzy View Post
    Jed -- I've been compiling what I think should be the same set of scales in the alternative way of organizing them --- One sheet for each of the 7 diatonic chords of C major, each sheet showing that one triad arpeggio in each of the 7 positions. If I understand what you are telling rbarata to do, this should be another way of organizing the same 49 (or 63) arpeggio shapes.

    I wanted to tag along in the exercise, without just simply duplicating rbarata's efforts in making those charts. I'm 5/7ths of the way done, and (I think) starting to see at least one example of the kind of thing you're talking about.
    xyzzy,

    Your description is exactly how I'm hoping rbarata (and you!) will organize the information - one diagram set (nine diagrams per page) for each chord's 2-octave arpeggio fingerings. Likely they will be arranged in chord tone order such that multiple fingerings starting on any one chord tone are adjacent to each other.

    You should duplicated rbarata's efforts. In this case the doing and the learning are tied together. One won't fully appreciate the later unless they personally do the former. The trick will be doing the work without spilling the beans to that you both can "discover" the same things individually.

    How valuable this information will seem depends on the degree to which you value seeing the whole picture. From my perspective the value is obvious and self-evident as it is the harmonic structure of the fretboard. For me all things flow from this structure. So from my perspective it's very valuable. I hope you both gain similar value from this process.

    cheers,
    Last edited by Jed; 06-09-2011 at 08:46 PM.

  11. #41
    Registered User xyzzy's Avatar
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    I've been in touch with Jed on the side to work through my charts. I was trying too hard to see things beyond what was more obviously there and that I was taking for granted, based on many previous conversations with him over the past 2 or 3 years.
    Last edited by xyzzy; 06-12-2011 at 03:06 AM.

  12. #42
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    Ok, some observations from this exercise:

    If I follow a specific order I can play all the arps (Chords I to VII) with only 3 different patterns: one for major chords, one for minor chords and another for dim chords.
    This order is, for example:

    Chord I - Fingering #1
    Chord II - Fingering #2
    Chord III - Fingering #3
    ...
    ...
    Chord VII - Fingering #7

    or, for example:

    Chord I - Fingering #7
    Chord II - Fingering #1
    Chord III - Fingering #2
    ...
    ...
    Chord VII - Fingering #6

    The patterns between major minor and dim chords will be different between them but common for the chords with the same quality.

    Another observations is that if I start Chord I with fingering #1, which is an arp in Root position, by following the orders above-mentioned, all the remaining chords will be in the Root position too.
    If I start Chord I, for example, by fingering #3 (which is in 1st inversion) and follow the same order (finishing in Chord VII with Fingering #2) all the other chords will be also in 1st inversion.
    The same, for example, if I start Chord I with fingering #4. Following the same order, all the chords will be in 2nd inversion.

    The table bellow tries to show this (colors mean different patterns) and the arrow shows the order I mentioned before:

    Inversions.JPG

    All the work is in the file bellow:

    Arps_Rev.1.zip

  13. #43
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    Ok, some observations from this exercise:

    If I follow a specific order I can play all the arps (Chords I to VII) with only 3 different patterns: one for major chords, one for minor chords and another for dim chords.
    This order is, for example:

    Chord I - Fingering #1
    Chord II - Fingering #2
    Chord III - Fingering #3
    ...
    ...
    Chord VII - Fingering #7

    or, for example:

    Chord I - Fingering #7
    Chord II - Fingering #1
    Chord III - Fingering #2
    ...
    ...
    Chord VII - Fingering #6

    The patterns between major minor and dim chords will be different between them but common for the chords with the same quality.
    I had to read this a few times to sort out what you were talking about. "Pattern" in this application normally means "a geometric shape" which is how you use it here. But pattern also can refer to the "pattern" of the major scale fingering, or the pattern of the 2-octave arp fingering, or the pattern of moving up on scale degree at a time, or the pattern of the starting note relative to some inversion. It's difficult to follow which of those meanings you refer to when you say "pattern" without some context. Allow me to describe what I think you mean to describe, please correct me if I'm wrong.

    It's possible to play each of the diatonic chords, in the same inversion, using the same starting finger, with just one fingering pattern per chord type - by moving up the fretboard at a rate of one scale degree per diatonic chord change. So if you start on:

    C major in root position, starting with the 1st finger
    * move up one scale degree to play the
    D minor in root position, starting with the 1st finger
    * move up one scale degree to play the
    E minor in root position, starting with the 1st finger (same fingering as Dmin)
    * move up one scale degree to play the
    F major in root position, starting with the 1st finger (same fingering as Cmaj)
    * move up one scale degree to play the
    G major in root position, starting with the 1st finger (same fingering as Cmaj)
    * move up one scale degree to play the
    A minor in root position, starting with the 1st finger (same fingering as Dmin)
    * move up one scale degree to play the
    B dim in root position, starting with the 1st finger

    Is this what you are describing in the quote above?
    If so, that is a valid, true and valuable observation.

    The same it true for all three possible starting finger groupings (1st finger, middle/3rd finger group, 4th finger) and all triad inversions. Leading to nine possible fingering (3 starting fingers times 3 inversions = 9) variations for each triad diatonic to C major.
    Last edited by Jed; 06-12-2011 at 03:21 AM.

  14. #44
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    I've looked at the colored chart (for inversion information) and the supporting documents. While I haven't found any errors yet . . I do think you are looking maybe a little too deep. Maybe that's just your way and if so then that's fine. Keep going deep - but try really hard to use standard musical terms and notation for your work so that you don't end up building a vocabulary that no one else can follow. Also, keep looking for ways to reduce all of this data down to the fewest unique truths about arpeggio fingerings. Once you get down to the smallest number of truths that satisfy all variations - you'll have finalized the analysis.

    One thing I'm still looking for is a sheet that illustrates all possible 2-octave triad arp fingerings for each triad type (major, minor & diminished). In this case "fingering" is a specific geometric shape w/ a specific finger for each note location in that shape. The actual notes are not critical - just the geometric shape and the fingerings relative to arp note locations for those shapes.

    One other note, when you refer to major scale fingerings by number - you will lose people since there is no standard numbering system for the various fingerings patterns (shapes) in any major scale fingering system. I typically refer to a fingering pattern by the - Key / starting note / string / finger - combination.

    For example what you call major scale fingering #1 - I refer to a the C major scale starting on C at the 6th string with the 1st finger. I know my description is long compared to your shorthand - but my description is absolutely clear and has only one meaning given a common major scale fingering system.
    Last edited by Jed; 06-12-2011 at 03:22 AM.

  15. #45
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    C major in root position, starting with the 1st finger
    * move up one scale to play the
    D minor in root position, starting with the 1st finger
    * move up one scale to play the
    E minor in root position, starting with the 1st finger (same fingering as Dmin)
    * move up one scale to play the
    F major in root position, starting with the 1st finger (same fingering as Cmaj)
    * move up one scale to play the
    G major in root position, starting with the 1st finger (same fingering as Cmaj)
    * move up one scale to play the
    A minor in root position, starting with the 1st finger (same fingering as Dmin)
    * move up one scale to play the
    B dim in root position, starting with the 1st finger
    Jed, this is what I intended to explain but without thinking in finger nšs.
    I was just mentioning pattern as geometric shapes.

    In this exercise I never considered which fingers to use, only patterns and intervals. Even though, what I could learn from it so far is a great help to simplify and organize the information that I can use in a guitar fretboard.
    Last edited by rbarata; 06-12-2011 at 03:26 AM.

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