Welcome!
Just a few a ground rules first...

Promotion, advertising and link building is not permitted.

If you are keen to learn, get to grips with something with the willing help of one of the net's original musician forums
or possess a genuine willingness to contribute knowledge - you've come to the right place!

Register >

- Close -
Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 94

Thread: Arp fingering

  1. #16
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    1,417
    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    Jed, I din't said I wasn't going through the exercises you've proposed. I justt want to know if one of the final results is this one.
    You will have first-hand knowledge one way or the other - after you've gone through the 8 steps. Why do you feel you need the answer to this question before you examine the results? Think of this as a scientific process - you see something, you analyze it and then you draw conclusions after you've had a chance to consider the results of your analysis. Conclusions come last, not first - in any analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    I also feel somewhat frustrated because you can't see (or accept) my way of thinking and my learning process, how my mind works to reach a certain conclusion.
    I can see, but I don't accept the limitations that you've imposed on yourself. We are human and as such we grow, learn and change every day. Allow yourself to believe you can learn in new and potentially more efficient and productive ways - and you will. I've spent a great deal of time and effort studying learning theory and strategies. I've taught subjects as varied as physics, chemistry and music at the college level to sea kayaking. I've seen others with a similar strategy to yours - they fought to defend their self-imposed limitations as well. At the end of the day, it's incumbent on the student to learn to absorb new information and knowledge - via various methodologies - if they are to learn at all. You cannot control the way in which other people present the information you want to learn. The only thing you can control is how you approach various presentation formats.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    Believe me, I'm trying to know is this is related because, depending on the answer, a connection between different areas of my knowledge can be created or "destroyed". If a connection is made, think of it as a direction to follow, not the path it self.
    You will have the answers you seek, when you've done the work. Any connection that may be made or broken in the process are best viewed with a clear and uncolored lens. Arbitrary advance expectations can only cloud your perceptions. Clear your mind, free yourself to see whatever you see in whatever way the information presents itself.
    Last edited by Jed; 06-03-2011 at 12:23 AM.

  2. #17
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    1,657
    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    This one method but in order to free the index finger to play the triad starting in the 8th fret I find it easier to do this:
    From there, pull-off with the little finger from G to Maj-3rd, play root with little finger (ie 13th fret B-string), slide down with the little finger to 8th fret, then play the next C-maj triad all with the index finger, then slide index finger down to 2nd fret D string (note E), and play C and G with index finger (then open string, then finally C at 8th fret).
    Sure, you can play it like that with the little finger (13th fret slide down to 8th fret).

    The only reason I did that with 2nd finger is that the 2nd finger is already in place to play 13th fret B-string ... so switching to the little finger is fractionally less efficient, but it's almost the same thing anyway.

    One thing though, there's a mistake in what I said at the end of the lick - I meant to say "play the last C and G notes at 3rd fret with the second finger" (not with the index finger) - the second finger is in position to do that (after index has played the maj-3rd at 2nd fret D-string) ... I'll go back & edit that part in my previous post.

    Sometimes it really matters which finger you use. Because sometimes the most immediately obvious method to you your mind and fingers is not in fact the most efficient and cannot be used if you need to play the lick very fast or very smoothly. But most of the time I don't find it necessary to follow suggestions in books for which particular finger to use to play anything.

    On the Paul Gilbert DVD Get Out of my Yard where he explains the long arpeggio sequence in Curse of Castle Dragon, he plays a Bmin7b5 arpeggio by string skipping. I play that by strict alternate picking, and you really do need to work out carefully which fingers to use on that particular arpeggio lick ... so that one arpeggio lick alone makes really great practice, and most players will probably need to practice that for years to get it anywhere near right. OK so you don't want to be stuck practicing just that one arp for years lol, but the point is - that arp is great practice for thinking clearly and being disciplined about both correct right hand picking and left hand fingering.

    Also - in your book Speed Mechanics, there is a so-called "Caprice" from Paganini, it's no 10 I think. Anyway, that starts with a straightforward G-min arpeggio straight from the common 3rd fret chord shape for G-min. The obvious and easy way to play that is by forming the chord with your left hand and just sweep picking it with the right hand. But I don't do that. Because if you do it like that, then it leaves you with an awkward and slow movement to play the next note which is A at 5th fret of top-E string.

    So instead, I do not form the G-Min barr-chord shape, and what I do is to alternate pick every note separately, and that is surprisingly hard ... but it leaves you in position to play the A-note efficiently on the top-E string. Try that, it's surprising, especially if you are trying to alternate pick that quite quickly and cleanly.
    Last edited by Crossroads; 06-03-2011 at 05:54 PM.

  3. #18
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    948
    Jed, I'm affraid I haven't understood the lay out of the data:

    1) First write out a list of the seven diatonic triads vertically

    2) Then write the scale degrees (from the major scale) that correspond to the chord tones in each of those seven diatonic triads - horizontally from the triad symbols
    Can you put an example just for me to see? I've tried but it seems there's something I'm missing here.

    Sure, you can play it like that with the little finger (13th fret slide down to 8th fret).

    The only reason I did that with 2nd finger is that the 2nd finger is already in place to play 13th fret B-string ... so switching to the little finger is fractionally less efficient, but it's almost the same thing anyway.
    Yes, it's almost the same thing. The first "unnatural" change I have to do is to switch to the pinky on the 15th fret. But after that change, everything's go smoothly. To my surprise, to play one way or another is easy.

    I'll take a look to the speed mechanics.

  4. #19
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    948
    Before I proceed...

    Is this what you meant? This is for CMaj scale only.

    positional forms.JPG

    And what about step 5?

    Do you mean notate the arpeggios in the fretboad?
    Last edited by rbarata; 06-03-2011 at 01:55 PM.

  5. #20
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    1,417
    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    Before I proceed...

    Is this what you meant? This is for CMaj scale only.
    The diagram box at the top left is very close to what I was talking about.

    The color codes are beyond what I was talking about, but it's a good exercise and will provide detail and understanding that is valuable for you to know.

    Inside each diagram box:
    The Green color code identifies a specific chord.
    The yellow highlight identifies how those chord tones of the specific chord are repurposed as chord tones for other chords.

    Other than re-listing the information in a new order, I don't see the benefit of the diagrams to the right of the arrows.

    I choose to think in a key-agnostic fashion - so I would go through this exercise using "functional triad / chord symbols" (Imaj, IImin, IIImin, etc) and compare the chord tones as scale degrees (as you have for your attachment)

    Your 1st diagram box (top left diagram) without color codes will satisfy my steps 1 & 2 once you change the "triad chord names" (Cmaj, Dmin, Emin) to "functional triad / chord symbols" (Imaj, IImin, IIImin).

    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    And what about step 5?
    What about step #3?

    Step #4 & #5 are to be applied to a particular major scale fingering pattern (one of the seven positional scale patterns for example) for each chord individually.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    Do you mean notate the arpeggios in the fretboard?
    Via some kind of fretboard map, yes. But do this for just one fingering pattern at a time. Later you can combine all the 2-octave arpeggios for any one specific triad into a triad map - which will show you additional / new information - that you may find valuable.

    cheers,

    PS See, isn't this better / more fun than jousting about where all this might lead?
    Last edited by Jed; 06-03-2011 at 03:55 PM.

  6. #21
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    1,417
    The value of looking at these things in a key-agnostic fashion - is to encourage you to think in terms of function as you work within any particular key. The functional aspects of keys and scale degrees are durable, meaning that they are the same for every key of the same type.

    The function of the IV chord in every major key is the same. The chord tones of the IV chord are the 4th, 6th & 1st degrees of the IV chord's parent major scale (the key's major scale). These facts are true for every major key.

    If you were to look at this same information in terms of notes specific to one particular key then you might miss the importance of the functional aspects of these things and you might miss that fact that the function is the more important concept to understand. Later when you need to learn a particular / rare key for some song - you will have a method to learn that key more quickly and view that key in a more musical way.
    Last edited by Jed; 06-03-2011 at 03:53 PM.

  7. #22
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    1,417
    As an aside to the conversation about triad 2-octave arpeggios . .

    Notice how in each of your diagrams, that for each triad / chord you have found two other chords that share two of the three chord tones of the original triad. Now consider that those two chords are often used as substitutions for the original chord. Also note that these two chords are always a 3rd away (both up and down) from the original chord. Why is that true? How can we use this new knowledge?

    This is why I encourage people to do this work themselves and not worry about where things lead. You will find new and valuable information when you take a deeper look into how these simple musical constructs work. These new things that you discover with have significant importance to you at some later time.

    cheers,
    Last edited by Jed; 06-03-2011 at 04:33 PM.

  8. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    948
    One question about step 5:

    QUOTE]
    5) For each of the seven triads: workout / notate all of the potential 2-octave triad arpeggio fingerings for that one major scale fingering pattern. (At the end of this process you will have found nine 2-octave triad arpeggios among the seven diatonic triads within that one major scale pattern)
    [/QUOTE]

    Obviously I've found the 7 2-octave arps but there are 9. But to respect the fingering the only possibility I see is to notate the 2 "missing" arps in frets higher than the 15th.
    So I assume I'm doing something inconplete or wrong. Am I?

    This is what I came up so far:

    arps table.JPG
    Last edited by rbarata; 06-06-2011 at 11:29 AM.

  9. #24
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    1,417
    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    Obviously I've found the 7 2-octave arps but there are 9. But to respect the fingering the only possibility I see is to notate the 2 "missing" arps in frets higher than the 15th.
    So I assume I'm doing something inconplete or wrong. Am I?
    Nope, nothing wrong as far as I can see. But it sounds like you are not noticing that the maps you found for the C major and A minor triads each contain two 2-octave arpeggios. Note that since each of those maps has two notes on the lowest and highest string, that means that for strict 2-octave triad arps - you have two related but slightly different (starting on different notes) 2-octave arpeggios.

    For C Major - C (low E) to C (high E) is 2-octaves.
    E (low E) to E (high E) us 2-octaves, etc

    Does that make sense?

    Note - for your full fretboard map for the I maj triad arp, you are missing a blue highlight on the G note at the 3rd string 12th fret.
    You'll find a fingering challenge with the Bdim 2-octave arp. Don't let it confuse you too much but you'll have to really think about how you want to finger that arp.
    Last edited by Jed; 06-06-2011 at 01:49 PM.

  10. #25
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    948
    Note that since each of those maps has two notes on the lowest and highest string, that means that for strict 2-octave triad arps - you have two related but slightly different (starting on different notes) 2-octave arpeggios.
    Do you mean that the reverse sequence of notes, although the same, since they start with different notes are different arpeggios?

    Note - for your full fretboard map for the I maj triad arp, you are missing a blue highlight on the G note at the 3rd string 12th fret.
    Ok, thanks

    You'll find a fingering challenge with the Bdim 2-octave arp.
    Do you mean by fingering, which fingers to use?

  11. #26
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    1,417
    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    Do you mean that the reverse sequence of notes, although the same, since they start with different notes are different arpeggios?
    No, I mean that for the C maj triad you have the option of playing a 2-octave arp from the root (up two octaves) to the root or a 2-octave arp from the 3rd (up two octaves) to the 3rd. It's a similar thing with the A minor arp but in this case it's from the b3th (up two octaves) to the b3rd or from the 5th (up two octaves) to the 5th. This is how I counted nine 2-octave arp fingerings for only seven triads. Each fingering that covers 2-octaves is a unique construct, related to other 2-octave arpeggios for the same triad type but starting and ending on different notes - so distinct fingerings.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    Do you mean by fingering, which fingers to use?
    Yes, which finger to use for which notes. The note locations are already determined / found, now all you have to sort out are the actual fingerings. For every 2-octave arp except the B dim triad - the fingering will correlate with the major scale fingering for each particular note. But for the B dim triad 2-octave arp there is a physical problem that you will find. Have a look and see if you find it.
    Last edited by Jed; 06-06-2011 at 06:44 PM.

  12. #27
    Registered User xyzzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    78
    Nice chart. There's a typo where VIm shows as Vm. Keep 'em coming

  13. #28
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    948
    No, I mean that for the C maj triad you have the option of playing a 2-octave arp from the root (up two octaves) to the root or a 2-octave arp from the 3rd (up two octaves) to the 3rd. It's a similar thing with the A minor arp but in this case it's from the b3th (up two octaves) to the b3rd or from the 5th (up two octaves) to the 5th. This is how I counted nine 2-octave arp fingerings for only seven triads. Each fingering that covers 2-octaves is a unique construct, related to other 2-octave arpeggios for the same triad type but starting and ending on different notes - so distinct fingerings.
    Ok, I see. I was thinking more in terms of starting in C and finish in E or vice versa but, from what you've said, it would be more than two octaves.

    But for the B dim triad 2-octave arp there is a physical problem that you will find. Have a look and see if you find it.
    Yes, you need to cross your fingers to play it like that. Ouch, that must hurt!

    Nice chart. There's a typo where VIm shows as Vm.
    Thanks! I used some of Jed's charts from the previous thread.
    Last edited by rbarata; 06-06-2011 at 09:43 PM.

  14. #29
    Registered User xyzzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    78
    Quote Originally Posted by Jed View Post
    But for the B dim triad 2-octave arp there is a physical problem that you will find. Have a look and see if you find it.
    Trying these out. Jed, do you mean where the index is expected to play both the F (5th string fret 8) and the B (4th string fret 9) as consecutive notes if following the strict fingerings of the underlying scale? I'm finding that it makes a smooth flow here nearly impossible, so I'm playing the B using middle finger rather than index. Is this what you mean?

    ETA: wow, I can see that's going to be a tough stretch (up a minor third on the same string from using middle and pinky) when I move this pattern down near the nut, tho!
    Last edited by xyzzy; 06-06-2011 at 10:10 PM.

  15. #30
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    1,417
    Quote Originally Posted by xyzzy View Post
    Trying these out. Jed, do you mean where the index is expected to play both the F (5th string fret 8) and the B (4th string fret 9) as consecutive notes if following the strict fingerings of the underlying scale? I'm finding that it makes a smooth flow here nearly impossible, so I'm playing the B using middle finger rather than index. Is this what you mean?

    ETA: wow, I can see that's going to be a tough stretch (up a minor third on the same string from using middle and pinky) when I move this pattern down near the nut, tho!
    hehe Yup, that's the one. There are a few challenging dim triad arps (2-octave versions) like that. FWIW, your description above is how I finger that arpeggio. I think of these kinds of things as opportunities to train my hand for wider stretches. I can play it smoothly using the 1st finger for both notes while ascending, but descending I have to use the alternate fingering.

    cheers,
    Last edited by Jed; 06-07-2011 at 12:20 AM.

Similar Threads

  1. Major triad arpeggio fingering
    By rbarata in forum Guitar Technique
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 12-06-2011, 09:53 PM
  2. Arp fingering sugestion needed
    By rbarata in forum Guitar Technique
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 05-13-2011, 04:58 PM
  3. Fingering for Bach to let the bass ring....?
    By Darkman in forum Guitar Technique
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 12-10-2009, 03:48 PM
  4. Help fingering this Steve Morse arp (F#m to D)
    By Wicked_Dreams in forum Guitar Technique
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-21-2005, 01:47 PM
  5. Arp Fingerings
    By Mateo150 in forum Guitar Technique
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-12-2005, 01:10 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •