Arp fingering

[rbarata]

Hello my friends

I've "fighting" with arpeggios and in my oppinion, the way how each one of us plays it is a personal choice. It depends on many things, some external (speed, dynamics, each note length, etc) and some internal or related with the player (finger's lengths, skill level, etc).
Due to this, probably it doesn't make much sense to post this but, as there are multiple ways to play the same exercises, maybe it makes some sense.

So, I've been trainning the following arp:

CMaj arp.jpg

The final part of the shaded area is a transition somewhat difficult because it is necessary to go through a great length in the fretboard. I've been playing it with the pinky and also with the ring finger or the medium too. I think the best is to do it with the pinky which is the most difficult.
What do you think? How would you play it?

[Jed]

Why are you messing around with 3-octave arpeggios? Did you get bored with the 2-octave arpeggios already?

[rbarata]

Why are you messing around with 3-octave arpeggios? Did you get bored with the 2-octave arpeggios already?

Hi Jed

I'm just trying to memorize most of the main CMaj scale arps everywhere in the fretboard. I understand, from the theory amd musical point of view, only two octaves has more than enough to keep me entertained for a long time but what I'm doing is working in helping me to recognize the notes and the different intervals in the freatboard.
Obviously, as I said before, if you have any sugestion, please go ahead.

[Jed]

I'm just trying to memorize most of the main CMaj scale arps everywhere in the fretboard. I understand, from the theory amd musical point of view, only two octaves has more than enough to keep me entertained for a long time but what I'm doing is working in helping me to recognize the notes and the different intervals in the freatboard.
Obviously, as I said before, if you have any sugestion, please go ahead.

Well, my suggestion was, has been and remains to:

Examine the seven positional scale forms (provided earlier) and distill from each of those forms one or more 2-octave arpeggio fingerings for each of the diatonic triads. This will yield a number of arpeggio fingerings for each triad type greater than 7 and less than 20. Organize those 2-octave arpeggio fingerings by type and by parent scale fingering, delete the duplicates and assemble a list of possible 2-octave fingerings by triad type (get back to us once this is done so we can check your work / progress).

Then study the bejezzus out of those 2-octave arpeggio fingerings as specific triad studies (so all possible 2-octave arp fingerings of each triad) in terms of actual notes and note locations until you know all of the possible 2-octave triad fingerings for every triad diatonic to C major really well. Once you've got all of those fluidly into your hands and in your head, it's time to start learning all of the possible triads by type for all keys (seven sharps to seven flats).

The totality of this work will include your current goals but will add to those goals - significant hand training for triad arps, a framework for each of the major scale fingerings, a framework for all of your chord forms and chord voicing studies, chord spellings for each of the triads diatonic to all 15 keys, a framework for your chord extension and pentatonic studies, significant ear-training for both diatonic progressions and cycle of 5ths, a framework for chord substitutions and much, much more.

The keys to the kingdom lie before you. Now it's up to you to learn how to use those keys to tie everything / every aspect of music / scales / chords / fingerings / fretboard into one cohesive whole. Don't look for exceptions! Look for commonalities! Look for shared musical constructs. Don't look for new things to learn, look for new ways to use the things you just learned.

All of music theory is expressed / reflected in the major scale. All of music technique is expressed in each major scale fingering / 2-octave arpeggio. The things you seek - are not "out there" somewhere - they are "in there" among the things you've already studied but not yet internalized.

cheers,

PS Among just the 2-octave triad arpeggios are the following intervallic structures:
unisons, minor & major 3rds, perfect & augmented 4ths, diminished & perfect 5ths, minor & major 6ths, octaves and their compound intervals. The only intervallic structures missing from 2-octave triad arpeggio studies are minor and major 2nds and minor and major 7ths.

[Crossroads]

OK well first of all the entire thing is a sequence of C-Maj triads going up and down in octaves. For the first half of this lick ascending up to 15th fret on top-E string - I think the obvious way is to start with the 2nd finger (C) + index (Maj3rd) + little finger (5th). And then do the same for next two octaves up to G at 15th fret.

From there, pull-off with the little finger from G to Maj-3rd, play root with 2nd finger (ie 13th fret B-string), slide down with the 2nd finger to 8th fret, then play the next C-maj triad all with the index finger, then slide index finger down to 2nd fret D string (note E), and play C and G with second finger (then open string, then finally C at 8th fret).

But that just sounds like a very boring arp to me. I think you should be practicing much more interesting arps. And practicing them by playing the notes in different orders, just like making licks from a scale, ie not just going straight up from root to 3rd to 5th to 7th and straight back down from 7 to 5 to 3 to 1.

All the arps on the Henderson DVD, or any Paul Gilbert DVD (eg "Silence Followed by a DR"), or the excellent Don Mock DVD (”The Blues from Rock to Jazz“) will give you masses of much better and far more creative arpeggio practice imho .

[rbarata]

Well, my suggestion was, has been and remains to:

Examine the seven positional scale forms (provided earlier) and distill from each of those forms one or more 2-octave arpeggio fingerings for each of the diatonic triads. This will yield a number of arpeggio fingerings for each triad type greater than 7 and less than 20. Organize those 2-octave arpeggio fingerings by type and by parent scale fingering, delete the duplicates and assemble a list of possible 2-octave fingerings by triad type (get back to us once this is done so we can check your work / progress).

I was wondering what are these positional forms and googling I've found this thread with a link to a file that, I suspect, you sent me some time ago.
There's a small explanation about what are these forms but I don't understand what are those T6/1s, T3/2, etc.
And the frets? On which frets are these forms played? Please explain this document.

OK well first of all the entire thing is a sequence of C-Maj triads going up and down in octaves. For the first half of this lick ascending up to 15th fret on top-E string - I think the obvious way is to start with the 2nd finger (C) + index (Maj3rd) + little finger (5th). And then do the same for next two octaves up to G at 15th fret.

From there, pull-off with the little finger from G to Maj-3rd, play root with 2nd finger (ie 13th fret B-string), slide down with the 2nd finger to 8th fret, then play the next C-maj triad all with the index finger, then slide index finger down to 2nd fret D string (note E), and play C and G with index finger (then open string, then finally C at 8th fret).

I will try it tonight. Thanks.

But that just sounds like a very boring arp to me. I think you should be practicing much more interesting arps. And practicing them by playing the notes in different orders, just like making licks from a scale, ie not just going straight up from root to 3rd to 5th to 7th and straight back down from 7 to 5 to 3 to 1.

My goal at this stage is only to be able to identify intervals and notes on the fretboard. I've found this the simpliest way. But that's just a way.

[Jed]

I was wondering what are these positional forms and googling

So you didn't read the info I posted and attached to this thread that you started recently ? - http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...ead.php?t=1875

Especially pertinent are the attachments to this post: http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...7&postcount=10

I've found this thread with a link to a file that, I suspect, you sent me some time ago.
There's a small explanation about what are these forms but I don't understand what are those T6/1s, T3/2, etc.
And the frets? On which frets are these forms played? Please explain this document.

T6/1s = Tonic played on the 6th string with the 1st finger - stretched position
T3/2 = Tonic played on the 3rd string with the 2nd finger

Alternatively, you can just ignore the tonic location information.

With regard to where on the fretboard to play these shapes - I find the question far too vulgar to warrant a detailed response. If you know a major scale and you know the notes of that scale in terms of their scale degree numbers and you know the note locations along any one string - then I'm confident you'll figure out where on the fretboard to position your hands for the various fingering patterns. We cannot do all the work for you.

[Crossroads]

My goal at this stage is only to be able to identify intervals and notes on the fretboard. I've found this the simpliest way. But that's just a way.

Sure. I understand that . It's a really vital thing to learn imho .

It's a great way to really learn the fretboard and get familiar with where chord tones & scale tones are. But what I am trying to say is simply that personally I found it was better & more efficient, and in fact just as easy, to practice all the main intervals, ie maj-7th, min-7th, 9th, and b5th too (as well as maj-3rd, b3rd and octaves).

So what I myself did was to try practicing all the arpeggios as I encountered each of them on the Henderson DVD (inc. the triads). So that for example - on Monday I'd spend say 45 min working out major and minor triads ... then on Tuesday I'd try maj7 and min7 arps for 45 mins together ... and then the next day, maybe I would practice 45 min on min7b5 and minMaj7 arps together ...

... I found that worked more quickly and more creatively than if I had kept practicing major triads for any long length of time, as if thinking I needed to master that before ever moving on to all the other arpeggios (all of which contain those triad intervals anyway).

[rbarata]

So you didn't read the info I posted and attached to this thread that you started recently ? - http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...ead.php?t=1875

Well, I'm sure this was not the one you wanted to show me. Anyway, sorry if I haven't read it as carefully as it was desired but sometimes the information load in the replies is so high that I have to choose what to use in that moment so that I can proceed my thinking process without putting confusion inmy mind by taking bigger steps than I can take.
But obviously all this information is always available when needed.

Especially pertinent are the attachments to this post: http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...7&postcount=10.

Ok, this positional forms is presented in a way that I think is clearer.

With regard to where on the fretboard to play these shapes - I find the question far too vulgar to warrant a detailed response. If you know a major scale and you know the notes of that scale in terms of their scale degree numbers and you know the note locations along any one string - then I'm confident you'll figure out where on the fretboard to position your hands for the various fingering patterns.

Ok, this is what I suspected. I just wanted a confirmation. Basically is to apply each pattern starting in different degrees of a scale, each degree with its own pattern.

We cannot do all the work for you.

Fortunately it's not like that. It all depends on how things are explained or presented. Sometimes things explained in a certain way are clear to me right from the start while others don't. If I put a lot of questions, well, sorry but it's because I just want to be sure that I'm understanding things correctly.

About the exercise you propose...when you say "Examine the seven positional scale forms (provided earlier) and distill from each of those forms one or more 2-octave arpeggio fingerings for each of the diatonic triads." do you mean create 2-octave arpeggios for each of the diatonic triads using the same form, i.e, form 1, then form 2, etc, etc?

[rbarata]

OK well first of all the entire thing is a sequence of C-Maj triads going up and down in octaves. For the first half of this lick ascending up to 15th fret on top-E string - I think the obvious way is to start with the 2nd finger (C) + index (Maj3rd) + little finger (5th). And then do the same for next two octaves up to G at 15th fret.

From there, pull-off with the little finger from G to Maj-3rd, play root with 2nd finger (ie 13th fret B-string), slide down with the 2nd finger to 8th fret, then play the next C-maj triad all with the index finger, then slide index finger down to 2nd fret D string (note E), and play C and G with index finger (then open string, then finally C at 8th fret).

This one method but in order to free the index finger to play the triad starting in the 8th fret I find it easier to do this:

From there, pull-off with the little finger from G to Maj-3rd, play root with little finger (ie 13th fret B-string), slide down with the little finger to 8th fret, then play the next C-maj triad all with the index finger, then slide index finger down to 2nd fret D string (note E), and play C and G with index finger (then open string, then finally C at 8th fret).

[Jed]

Well, I'm sure this was not the one you wanted to show me. Anyway, sorry if I haven't read it as carefully as it was desired but sometimes the information load in the replies is so high that I have to choose what to use in that moment so that I can proceed my thinking process without putting confusion in my mind by taking bigger steps than I can take.
But obviously all this information is always available when needed.

You started a thread on 5/12/11 titled "Arp fingering sugestion needed". In that thread a significant discussion unfolded relative to all sorts of information about scale forms (positional versus CAGED), 2-octave arpeggio fingerings, etc.

You have a habit of asking a question of limited functionality - and when people respond with more functional / more universal thinking - you cast that information aside because it doesn't fit with the specific way you think you have to learn the one thing you asked about. This behavior defines a significant error in your logic relative to how to learn about something new.

Music theory is not a huge catalog of unrelated information. Music theory is a very well-defined set of a very few rules. It's only the myriad permutations that are so numerous so as to appear complicated. It's not possible "to learn music theory the wrong way". It is possible to use the terms incorrectly but if you find something that works correctly in all situations and instances then it cannot be wrong.

Ok, this positional forms is presented in a way that I think is clearer.

Both of those attachments (and a lot of other information) was presented in the thread you started on 5/12/11 titled "Arp fingering sugestion needed". Had you taken the time to read what people had written back then - you would not be asking the same questions weeks later.

Ok, this is what I suspected. I just wanted a confirmation. Basically is to apply each pattern starting in different degrees of a scale, each degree with its own pattern.

Someday you will look back at this statement and see something completely different.

Fortunately it's not like that. It all depends on how things are explained or presented. Sometimes things explained in a certain way are clear to me right from the start while others don't. If I put a lot of questions, well, sorry but it's because I just want to be sure that I'm understanding things correctly.

With respect, you are making things more difficult for yourself by insisting on maintaining a flawed logic / view of what is and how things work. If instead you opened your mind and waited to create a model until you had some data about how these things behave - then you would progress more quickly an in a more accurate direction. Stop trying to read the book from the last chapter to the first. You already know the last chapter - it's what you think of as music. The rest of the book (first chapter to last) teaches you how to think about these things so that you can learn quickly and logically.

About the exercise you propose...when you say "Examine the seven positional scale forms (provided earlier) and distill from each of those forms one or more 2-octave arpeggio fingerings for each of the diatonic triads." do you mean create 2-octave arpeggios for each of the diatonic triads using the same form, i.e, form 1, then form 2, etc, etc?

1) First write out a list of the seven diatonic triads vertically

2) Then write the scale degrees (from the major scale) that correspond to the chord tones in each of those seven diatonic triads - horizontally from the triad symbols

3) Pick one / any scale fingering pattern

4) For each of the seven triads, find all the occurrences of the chord tones in just that one major scale fingering pattern

5) For each of the seven triads: workout / notate all of the potential 2-octave triad arpeggio fingerings for that one major scale fingering pattern. (At the end of this process you will have found nine 2-octave triad arpeggios among the seven diatonic triads within that one major scale pattern)

6) Repeat steps #3 thru #5 for each of the seven major scale fingering patterns (at the end of this step you will have found sixty-three 2-octave fingerings among the seven diatonic triads within the seven major scale fingering patterns.

7) Organize the major triad 2-octave arpeggios (collect all the major triad 2-octave arpeggios) and delete the duplicates.

8) Repeat #7 for the Minor triad arpeggios.

9) Repeat #7 for the Diminished triads arpeggios.

When all of this is done you will have found all of the potential 2-octave triad arpeggios native to that particular major scale fingering system. (Do the work - and then you tell us how many you found - and what that means.) Then you can spend the next 6 months to a year memorizing those 2-octave triad arpeggios across all possible keys.

Then and not before will you have the knowledge and understanding to do what you were trying to do in the post that started this thread. (Which by the way is an example of the same flawed logic that lead you to ask a similar question in the thread you started on 5/12/11 titled "Arp fingering sugestion needed".) If you are going to ask a question, to which the response may take some effort - then it's only common courtesy to consider the responses in depth before you ask the same question a different way a couple of weeks later. Everything discussed in this thread has been covered before, . . and before that . . . going back months and months ago.

cheers,

[rbarata]

You have a habit of asking a question of limited functionality - and when people respond with more functional / more universal thinking - you cast that information aside because it doesn't fit with the specific way you think you have to learn the one thing you asked about. This behavior defines a significant error in your logic relative to how to learn about something new.

Well, if I do that is an unconscious reflex. I'm sorry if I make people feel that their replies are ignored. But in respect of the 5/12/11 thread, "Arp fingering sugestion needed" I recognized I was a little overwhelmed because my question about fingering was about which finger to use and not which frets to put my fingers on. That was my mistake because I put that thread in the theory section of the forum.

But the problem is that now I did the same type of question (with the continuation of the previous exercise) in the correct section of the forum (guitar technique) but the answer was the same...except for Crossroads who understood my question.

Anyway, I'm glad you are putting your efforts to help me, even though I can be a pain in the a**. And I'm gald also that you came up with the positional system issue because I believe it's related with what I'm studying: for evary type of triad (Major, minor diminished) the pattern (or fingering) is the same for each one of them: one pattern for majors, another for minor and another for dim's. And it's always the same along the entire fretboard for every triads with the same quality.
Is this what you're trying to make me see?

[Jed]

Anyway, I'm glad you are putting your efforts to help me, even though I can be a pain in the a**. And I'm gald also that you came up with the positional system issue because I believe it's related with what I'm studying: for evary type of triad (Major, minor diminished) the pattern (or fingering) is the same for each one of them: one pattern for majors, another for minor and another for dim's. And it's always the same along the entire fretboard for every triads with the same quality.
Is this what you're trying to make me see?

See?? You are doing it again. I've laid-out a systematic way from you to gain a complete and thorough knowledge of triad arpeggios and to help you avoid asking millions of related questions (along with significant peripheral knowledge and understanding) - and rather than following the program, rather than even trying the program - you jump right to an assumption about the purpose and end result of that effort.

Follow the eight steps I laid out - and you will learn much much more that you currently think you will (or could) learn. If you could only find the willingness to try something before you understand that thing - you could make your life (and mine) much easier.

cheers,

[Jed]

Well, if I do that is an unconscious reflex. I'm sorry if I make people feel that their replies are ignored. But in respect of the 5/12/11 thread, "Arp fingering sugestion needed" I recognized I was a little overwhelmed because my question about fingering was about which finger to use and not which frets to put my fingers on. That was my mistake because I put that thread in the theory section of the forum.

But the problem is that now I did the same type of question (with the continuation of the previous exercise) in the correct section of the forum (guitar technique) but the answer was the same...except for Crossroads who understood my question.

This then is my frustration. Were you see two unrelated questions - I see the same lack of understanding applied to two instances of the same thing. The problem is that you are looking for easy ways to play a 3-octave arpeggios on the guitar - it's not easy - it's never easy to play three octave arps on the guitar. The instrument itself makes three octave arps very difficult.

Had you studied and learned the 2-octave arps as I've suggested many times - you would already understand why no one tries to play 3-octave arps. The issue, you see, is that you are not thinking in terms of what the instrument can do - but rather fixating on what it cannot do. You are trying to stuff a square peg into a round hole. Why would you not want to learn about everything the guitar can do before you worry about what the guitar cannot do??

Once you learn about 2-octave arps, then learning to play 3-octave arps is possible. But you don't want to learn to walk first, you seem to want to run before you've learned to crawl or walk. Music doesn't work that way. Start at the beginning, build your skills over time as you build your knowledge.

[rbarata]

See?? You are doing it again. I've laid-out a systematic way from you to gain a complete and thorough knowledge of triad arpeggios and to help you avoid asking millions of related questions (along with significant peripheral knowledge and understanding) - and rather than following the program, rather than every trying the program - you jump right to an assumption about the purpose and end result of that effort.

Follow the eight steps I laid out - and you will learn much much more that you currently think you will (or could) learn. If you could only find the willingness to try something before you understand that thing - you could make your life (and mine) much easier.

Jed, I din't said I wasn't going through the exercises you've proposed. I justt want to know if one of the final results is this one. I also feel somewhat frustrated because you can't see (or accept) my way of thinking and my learning process, how my mind works to reach a certain conclusion.
Believe me, I'm trying to know is this is related because, depending on the answer, a connection between different areas of my knowledge can be created or "destroyed". If a connection is made, think of it as a direction to follow, not the path it self.