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Thread: Major 11th chords

  1. #106
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    wellll... technically, ..... VIm7 and VIIm7b5
    Right... VIIm7 = 1-b3-5-b7 while VIIm7b5 = 1-b3-b5-b7.

    The VI was an error.

  2. #107
    Registered User xyzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    Right... VIIm7 = 1-b3-5-b7 while VIIm7b5 = 1-b3-b5-b7.

    The VI was an error.
    Apologies for muddying the water -- I'll leave that to Jed . Just pointing out that we need one each of some sort of VI and VII, and that m7b5 is not the same as dim7.
    Last edited by xyzzy; 04-27-2011 at 04:47 PM.

  3. #108
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzzy View Post
    Apologies for muddying the water -- I'll leave that to Jed . Just pointing out that we need one each of some sort of VI and VII, and that m7b5 is not the same as dim7.
    And so here I am to do my part to muddy the waters . . . .

    When you are talking triads - the VII chord in a major key is "diminished" (1 b3 b5).
    But when talking 7th chords the VII chord in a major key is a "minor7 b5" (1 b3 b5 b7).

    Exactly because (as xyzzy says) - the dim7 label is reserved for the (1 b3 b5 bb7) chord formula. My the way don't even call the VII chord "half-diminished" - there is no such thing. Have you ever seem a woman that was only "half-pregnant"? The proper terminology for VII chords in a major key are "diminished" if talking triads or "minor7 b5" if talking 7th chords.

    ** Yet another example of how specific music theory terminology is **

    cheers,

  4. #109
    Registered User xyzzy's Avatar
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    Jed, fwiw I've been working on a couple of the chord progressions from the Vanilla Book, and they're coming to me a lot more easily this time around. Got a couple into my head, and finding multiple spots on the neck to play various chords and chord groups has become something I can now at least puzzle out with the guitar still in hand, rather than having to set it down while I get pencil&paper or consult some external source. No doubt those arp exercises are the main reason. Been "Discovering" for myself new ways of playing ii-V-I etc.

  5. #110
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jed View Post
    By the way don't even call the VII chord "half-diminished" - there is no such thing. Have you ever seem a woman that was only "half-pregnant"? The proper terminology for VII chords in a major key are "diminished" if talking triads or "minor7 b5" if talking 7th chords.

    ** Yet another example of how specific music theory terminology is **

    cheers,
    Well, if you think of the dim7 chord as having two diminished intervals (b5, bb7), and the m7b5 having just one (b5), then "half-diminished" makes perfect sense. It's half as diminished as a minor7b5.

    (You can always find a logic in music theory if you look hard enough... )

  6. #111
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzzy View Post
    Jed, fwiw I've been working on a couple of the chord progressions from the Vanilla Book, and they're coming to me a lot more easily this time around. Got a couple into my head, and finding multiple spots on the neck to play various chords and chord groups has become something I can now at least puzzle out with the guitar still in hand, rather than having to set it down while I get pencil&paper or consult some external source. No doubt those arp exercises are the main reason. Been "Discovering" for myself new ways of playing ii-V-I etc.
    If you could see the big grin on my face . . . . I'm happy to hear you say that . . . It's often the simple things that provide the new connections and expand our skills in new and interesting ways. As you've heard me say a hundred times, I'm heavily into fretboard visualization. I credit all of my progress to that end to be a direct result of the arp work I've done over the years. There's something about being able to "see" the fretboard that makes playing soooooo much easier.

    cheers and congrat's

  7. #112
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    C11 excellent CMaj11 show me one

    11 chords need a lowered 7th. dominant or minor. You see them everywhere.
    I beg to differ with the individual who claims 11 chords sound bad. They are quite juicy.

    Maj11 theoretically possible, never saw one. I'd like to see one, and not some person who just
    decides to do it, but in a tasteful way that makes musical sense.

  8. #113
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tixrus View Post
    11 chords need a lowered 7th. dominant or minor. You see them everywhere.
    I beg to differ with the individual who claims 11 chords sound bad. They are quite juicy.
    Indeed.
    Can you suggest me a track that includes one? Preferably with youtube link. I'm genuinely curious, because I've never (in 50 years) found a piece of music that contains one. Of course, I haven't heard all the music in the world!
    I mean a full 11th chord, with the 3rd included below the 11th, although I'd be happy to find one with the 3rd above the 11th too. (The "11" chord symbol normally - in my experience - means a 7sus4 or 9sus4 chord.)
    Quote Originally Posted by tixrus View Post
    Maj11 theoretically possible, never saw one. I'd like to see one, and not some person who just
    decides to do it, but in a tasteful way that makes musical sense.
    Right! (Same applies to my search for a dom11 chord.)

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