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Thread: Major 11th chords

  1. #16
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    Jed, there was an error in the CMaj scale in your post: D and E.

    The chord scale for Cmaj7 (Imaj7) in the key of C major is: C D E F G A B C
    Ct: C-E-G-B
    Ce: D, A
    An: F

    The chord scale for Fmaj7 (IVmaj7) in the key of C major is: F G A B C D E F
    Ct: F-A-C-E
    Ce: G, B, D
    An: None

    The chord scale for G7 (V7) in the key of C major is: G A B C D E F G
    Ct: G-B-D-F
    Ce: A, E
    An: C

    The chord scale for Dm7 (IIm7) in the key of C major is: D E F G A B C
    Ct: D-F-A-C
    Ce: E, G, B
    An: None

    The chord scale for Am7 (VIm7) in the key of C major is: A B C D E F G A
    Ct: A-C-E-G
    Ce: B, D
    An: F

    The chord scale for Em7 (IIIm7) in the key of C major is: E F G A B C D E
    Ct: E-G-B-D
    Ce: A
    An: F, C

    The chord scale for Bm7b5 (VIIm7b5) in the key of C major is: B C D E F G A B
    Ct: B-D-F-A
    Ce: E, G
    An: C

    I think this correct but when you say that and avoid note is any diatonic note that is not a chord tone and is a half step above a chord tone why is this not applicable to notes a half-step bellow a chord tone?

  2. #17
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    J The chord scale for Cmaj7 (Imaj7) in the key of C major is: C D E F G A B C
    Ct: C-E-G-B
    Ce: D, A
    An: F
    Now for each chord you can write out the chord scale using colors to identify the chord tones vs the extensions vs the avoid notes - Like so
    C maj7 = Imaj7 = C D E F G A B C

    Or you can write them out this way
    Cmaj7 = Imaj7 = C E G B + D (9th), A (13th) & F (11th) = Avoid Note

    Or like so:
    Imaj7 = 1 3 5 7 + 9 13 - (not 11th)

    So the extensions over a Imaj7 are the 9th and the 13th. Compare this to the extensions available over the IVmaj7 and the V7 chords. Do a similar comparison among the minor chords.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    I think this correct but when you say that and avoid note is any diatonic note that is not a chord tone and is a half step above a chord tone why is this not applicable to notes a half-step bellow a chord tone?
    Again, you are looking for the rules of music theory to have some external logic. The rules we use for music theory are developed via observation. We saw (heard) what worked and found a way to describe it (to correlate rules based on our observations). It is what it is, there is no why.

    cheers,

  3. #18
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    To expand on Jed's point, you can think of the "rules" of music theory like the "rules" of grammar.

    In English a rule is to put an adjective before the noun it modifies - the "red car" - but in Portuguese the rule is to put the adjective after the noun - o "carro vermelho".

    You can't look to the rules themselves for a reason "why" the words are ordered differently in these two languages - they just describe "the way it is".

  4. #19
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    To expand on Jed's point, you can think of the "rules" of music theory like the "rules" of grammar.

    In English a rule is to put an adjective before the noun it modifies - the "red car" - but in Portuguese the rule is to put the adjective after the noun - o "carro vermelho".

    You can't look to the rules themselves for a reason "why" the words are ordered differently in these two languages - they just describe "the way it is".
    Yes, I keep doing it. I will lose that habit.

    Compare this to the extensions available over the IVmaj7 and the V7 chords. Do a similar comparison among the minor chords.
    Maybe I'm missing something. I couldn't find any particular pattern (if that's what I'm looking for). But I noticed some others (pink are chord tones, blue are extensions and reds are avoid notes):

    7th chords.jpg

    1 - The non-chord tones of IMaj7 are the chord triad of the IIm7. Then the non-chord tones of the IIm7 are the chord triad of the IIIm7, etc, etc.

    2 - The note extensions are those that are not chord tones, as long as they are not a half-step above their preceeding chord tone. Otherwise they are avoid notes. I guess this is the main rule here (as previously said).

  5. #20
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    I like how you organized the information. There are errors in the top-left chart for the IVmaj7 chord (the IVmaj7 chord has no (natural) 11th). Remember the chord scale degrees are numbered as per the arabic numeral scheme that we reviewed before when talking about intervals. (major scale of the tonic assumed, use accidentals as required to indicate the proper scalar intervals)

    A similar problem appears on all the chord scales other than the Ima7 chord scale. You need to fix this first before we can go on.

    I would change the other two charts (top-right & bottom) to reflect the same interval naming scheme. Once this is done you'll be able to see some things. Lastly - reorganize the chord scale diagrams so that IVmaj7 is first, then Imaj7, then V7, then IIm7, then VIm7, then IIIm7, then VIIm7b5.

    In the top-right and bottom charts - leave the chord tones as black ink, extensions as blue and avoid notes as red. Always, always always - talk about scale degrees, chord tones, chord extensions and chord avoid notes - in terms of their intervalic naming conventions. The reason you can't see anything from that exercise is exactly because you did not use the proper notation. Yes, I am a stickler for proper notation and you are about to find out why. Don't change you original attachment - but create a new attachment with the corrections. You are close to making an important discovery - see this thing through until you get it right!!

    For what you want to see the interval naming is more important than the note names - but use both, note names and interval numbers for everything.
    Last edited by Jed; 04-20-2011 at 12:57 AM.

  6. #21
    Registered User xyzzy's Avatar
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    Interesting stuff, Jed. I'm following along and doing the homework.

  7. #22
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzzy View Post
    Interesting stuff, Jed. I'm following along and doing the homework.
    I think you'll find this to be fun and illustrate some really interesting structures and commonalities. BTW, what are you doing up so late / so early?

    cheers,

  8. #23
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    I like how you organized the information.
    That's my scientific approach to music.

    There are errors in the top-left chart for the IVmaj7 chord (the IVmaj7 chord has no (natural) 11th).
    This one I didn't understood. Isn't it a B? Unless we should use the FMaj scale and the B becomes a Bb. But, if that's the case why have you previously posted that "The chord scale for Fmaj7 (IVmaj7) in the key of C major is: F G A B C D E F"?

  9. #24
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    This one I didn't understood. Isn't it a B? Unless we should use the FMaj scale and the B becomes a Bb. But, if that's the case why have you previously posted that "The chord scale for Fmaj7 (IVmaj7) in the key of C major is: F G A B C D E F"?
    The 11th of Fmaj in the key of C major is in fact a B natural.
    But B natural in the key of F is not the 11th, it's the #11th.
    Exactly because (as you said) the natural 11th of F major would be a Bb.
    So to get to the B natural (that we need in the key of C major) we have to add the sharp (relative to F major).

    ** It's the "use the proper notation" thing again **
    żż Remember the intervallic naming conventions that we've been talking about for the past six months ??

    ** F G A B C D E F = 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 1 **
    ** The major scale of the tonic (F) is assumed **
    ** Sharps or flats are added as needed to maintain the proper intervals **
    Last edited by Jed; 04-20-2011 at 09:51 AM.

  10. #25
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    The 11th of Fmaj in the key of C major is in fact a B natural.
    But B natural in the key of F is not the 11th, it's the #11th.
    I think we might be talking about different things. The exercise that I've done is in the key of C, so I used the CMaj scale. But as I can see, to find the IVmaj7 chord you've used the FMaj scale. This is the step that I'm not understanding. As far as I understood, we are working in the key of C (hence the IV chord) which means we should use the CMaj scale only. If we were in the key of F the FMaj7 would be a Imaj7.
    Last edited by rbarata; 04-20-2011 at 10:03 AM.

  11. #26
    Registered User xyzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jed View Post
    I think you'll find this to be fun and illustrate some really interesting structures and commonalities. BTW, what are you doing up so late / so early?

    cheers,
    Sleepless due to some foot pain. I have a chart ready, but don't want to spoil rbarata's fun just yet now for some sleep. maybe

  12. #27
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    I think we might be talking about different things. The exercise that I've done is in the key of C, so I used the CMaj scale. But as I can see, to find the IVmaj7 chord you've used the FMaj scale. This is the step that I'm not understanding.
    When you notate the chord tones and the chord scale degrees as arabic numerals standard notation conventions dictate that the arabic numerals be notated as relative to the major scale of the tonic (F major key/scale) even though you are using the notes from C major. Did you forget the intervallic naming rules? If so, I've made a major miscalculation.

    The IV chord in C major is F major.
    The scale of the C major key is - C D E F G A B C = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1
    The chord scale for the Fmaj chord in the key of C major is - F G A B C D E F = 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 1
    The chord scale for the Fmaj chord in the key of F major is - F G A Bb C D E F = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

    Because you are in the key of C major - you have to use the notes of C major (the B natural)
    But B natural doesn't exist in F major - so you have to use the # on the 4th degree (to change Bb to B natural) - when talking about the notes (of C major key) relative to (the tonic of the chord) F major.
    Last edited by Jed; 04-20-2011 at 10:20 AM.

  13. #28
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzzy View Post
    Sleepless due to some foot pain. I have a chart ready, but don't want to spoil rbarata's fun just yet now for some sleep. maybe
    Sorry to hear about the foot pain. The cat woke me up at 4pm or so - so I wrote out a few charts as well. But I agree, best to let rbarata "find" these things himself.

    cheers,

  14. #29
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    deleted
    Last edited by xyzzy; 04-20-2011 at 10:40 AM. Reason: posted hint thinking Jed was asleep -- I now see he was awake and gave one, and he's the instructor, not me :)

  15. #30
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    Intervallic notation 101:

    The C major scale, "C D E F G A B C" is notated intervalicly as "1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1".

    This is to indicate that the numbers represent the notes as follows:
    1 = the tonic of the scale / key = the diatonic first from the tonic's major scale
    2 = the major second of the scale / key = the diatonic second from the tonic's major scale
    3 = the major third of the scale / key = the diatonic third from the tonic's major scale
    4 = the perfect fourth of the scale / key = the diatonic fourth from the tonic's major scale
    5 = the perfect fifth of the scale / key = the diatonic fifth from the tonic's major scale
    6 = the major sixth of the scale / key = the diatonic sixth from the tonic's major scale
    7 = the major seventh of the scale / key = the diatonic seventh from the tonic's major scale
    1 = the tonic of the scale / key - the diatonic first from the tonic's major scale

    If we were to look at a scale = C D Eb F G A Bb C - we would notate that scale as 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 1
    In the above the b3 means to use the note 1/2 step below the major 3rd of C major (Eb instead of E)
    In the above the b7 means to use the note 1/2 step below the major 7th of C major (Bb instead of B)

    If we were to look at a scale = C D E F# G A B C - we would notate that scale as 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 1
    In the above the #4 means to use the note 1/2 step above the perfect 4th of C major (F# instead of F)


    If we were to look at a scale = C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C - we would notate that scale as 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 1
    In the above the b2 means to use the note 1/2 step below the major 2nd of C major (Db instead of D)
    In the above the b3 means to use the note 1/2 step below the major 3rd of C major (Eb instead of E)
    In the above the b6 means to use the note 1/2 step below the major 6th of C major (Ab instead of A)
    In the above the b7 means to use the note 1/2 step below the major 7th of C major (Bb instead of B)
    Last edited by Jed; 04-20-2011 at 10:51 AM.

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