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Thread: minor 1 6 2 5 looking for critique.

  1. #1
    Did I say that out loud ? joeyd929's Avatar
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    minor 1 6 2 5 looking for critique.

    Hi. I posted a video on you tube with some new chord forms (new to me) that basically follow the following chord tone sequence. 1735 or 3157. I play them in either order, low to high, or high to low but anyway, I was playing around with the minor 1 6 2 5 progression i vi ii V7..

    Normally you can just have the bass play the root of each chord but I was playing around with these inversions, and as you can see they offer any chord tone as a bottom note, 1 3 5 or 7, and can be Major, minor or Dominant.

    Please check out this link to hear how it sounds with the falling bass line that cycles back to Eb. Here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10VurBSoZ0A

    Any input would be greatly appreciated. I just thought that this can give me more options for bass lines, I love moving bass lines on guitar. Thanks in advance for any comments. Joe

  2. #2
    JazzNerd gersdal's Avatar
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    I found your voicings to sound great. Haven't checked them out on the guitar yet, so I don't know how new they are. The fourth chord in the first version was a bit dissonant in my opinion, but I will check it out on my guitar... and wiill not give any final comment before I have tested a bit. The rest was great.

    Have you written them out in any way?

  3. #3
    Did I say that out loud ? joeyd929's Avatar
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    4th chord

    Yeah, I struggled with this chord and tried several options. First I just raised the fifth to a #5 but it sounded empty. Normally when I play a 7#5 I would use the inversion that has root in the bass, then 7, 3 and #5.

    The thing is that with this (4th chord) I raise the 5th and the root to make the 7b9#5 chord. This "inversion" is Bb7 with the natural third working as the bass note and when I just tried #5 alone, the third doesn't sound the same as the root position form.

    In the root position form the third and #5 are very close, only two whole steps up from 3rd to #5. However, in the version with the 3rd in the bass, the #5 is just a bigger stretch and doesn't give the effect I wanted.

    When I decided to raise the root to hear the b9 it causes a little contrary motion which I thought was cool. When Im playing the Fmi7b5 with Eb in the Bass, I drop the Eb down to D, landing on the 3rd of Bb.

    So this is the descending motion, while the root in the Fmi7b5 goes up by one half step to F# at the same time, becoming the #5 of Bb, causing ascending motion, hence the contrary motion.

    I think you may be able to work out these chords if I give you the basic rule that I followed for these chords.

    The entire piece does NOT use the fifth string, all chords are on the 6th string, 4th, 3rd, and 2nd string.

    Here is the deal, although there are many chord inversions, the chords I am using follow two "inversions", for lack of a better word.

    ALL of these chords are following the following two "inversions".

    1 7 3 5 and 3 1 5 7 You can use them either way, with the 1 on the bottom string or top string, same for the 3157, either way, do you follow what I'm saying?

    The first chord is Ebminor7 and the low note is Eb so this first chord is 1735
    (remember, not using the fifth string at all)

    The second chord is simply another form if Ebminor6, but in this progression it is really acting as Cminor7b5 with b3 in the bass. So this chord has obviously got the third (b3) in the bass so this one from low note to high note is 3157.

    The next one is simply Fminor7b5 with the b7 in bass. So from the highest note in the chord to the lowest is 3157, with b7th on the low string.

    The next one is your favorite chord, (laffs) I just drop the Eb to D and raise the F to F#. The way I finger it, I just drop my third finger down 1/2 step and add my pinky to raise the F. Dissonant, yes, but if the next chord comes right away, it creates just enough tension before you have time to realize it, the next chord is being played.

    The remainder of chords is all the same two patterns.

    Basically what I was trying to do was take a simple minor i vi ii V progression and have diatonic ascending bass movement so I started at the root chord on the 11th fret.

    At this point (only using these two "inversions") I looked for the next lowest note that works with Cminor7b5, the second chord. Well, Eb is my note, I stay on it for the third chord also, the b3 of Cminor7b5 becomes the b7 of Fminor7b5, very cool indeed.

    The Fminor7b5 (third chord) is 3157 with b7 at the bottom, then on to the Bb7b9#5 (4th chord)

    Fifth chord is just Ebminor7 with the b7 in bass. This one is 3157 with b7 as lowest note. Drop the Db down to C and now it is Cminor7b5 with root on the bottom.

    Then Fminor7b5 with b5 in bass, (B). AFter this play the typical Bb7#5 with root on the 6th string, following low to high, 1 7 3 5

    From here I play Ebminor7 with Ab in the bass, follows 1735 with 5 on the bottom. Drop the Db down to D and it becomes Cminor7b5 with b7 in bass so 3157 with 7 on bottom.

    Fminor7b5 is being subbed by Abminor6 (Fminor7b5 with b3 in bass) so low to high, 3157. NOw, drop the Eb down to D and you have Abdiminished7, a viable sub for Bb7, implying Bb7b9.

    Last and finally, Ebminor7 with b3 in bass, 3157 low to high. Drop the b7 (Db) down to C and you have Cminor7b5 again with b5 in bass, then Play Fminor7b5 with root in bass, (first fret) then go to Edominant (tritone sub for Bb7) and proceed to Eb and repeat....

    I just kept working my way down with these two inversions and the rest is history I guess. I love walking bass lines so I experiment alot. I did this on the fly sitting here with my accoustic. So remember, all forms skip the fifth string and IM using only 1735 and 3157.

    Oh, one other interesting and cool thing about ALL of these chords. Conventional fingerings will make something cool happen, your INDEX finger will ALWAYS be on the root of the chord, no matter what inversion you play, either 1735 or 3157. Joe



    HOpe that helps. Joe
    Last edited by joeyd929; 10-28-2010 at 11:03 PM. Reason: bad grammar

  4. #4
    Did I say that out loud ? joeyd929's Avatar
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    Better layout

    Here is a breakdown with less "junk" around it.

    Chord 1
    Ebminor7 low to high- 1735

    Chord 2
    Cminor7b5 low to high- 3157

    Chord 3
    Fminor7b5 high to low-3157

    Chord 4
    Bb7b9#5 low to high-3157

    Chord 5
    Ebminor7 high to low-3157

    Chord 6
    Cminor7b5 low to high-1735

    Chord 7
    Fminor7b5 high to low-1735

    Chord 8
    Bb7#5 low to high-1735

    Chord 9
    Ebminor 7 high to low-1735

    Chord 10
    Cminor7b5 high to low-3157

    Chord 11
    Fminor7b5 low to high 3157

    Chord 12
    Bb7b9 -**Take chord 11 and drop the top note from Eb to D (Ab dim7 as Bb7b9)

    Chord 13
    Ebminor7 low to high-3157

    Chord 14
    Cminor7b5 high to low 1735

    Chord 15
    Fminor7b5 low to high 1735

    Chord 16
    Using Edominant as tritone sub for Bb7, then resolve back to beginning.
    Bb7

    Lemmeknow if you have any questions. Joe
    Last edited by joeyd929; 10-28-2010 at 10:54 PM. Reason: Incorrect key listed

  5. #5
    Did I say that out loud ? joeyd929's Avatar
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    16 bars

    I didn't plan it that way but I just realized it covers a full 16 bars, schweet.

  6. #6
    JazzNerd gersdal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyd929 View Post
    I didn't plan it that way but I just realized it covers a full 16 bars, schweet.
    Now I'm really anoyed about being in a hotel room far from home and with no guitar . I'm looking forward to checking these things out in the weekend.

  7. #7
    Did I say that out loud ? joeyd929's Avatar
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    .pdf

    This is not in a specific key, I just took each chord and made the necessary adjustments with sharps/flats to make it work. Hope this helps.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  8. #8
    Did I say that out loud ? joeyd929's Avatar
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    Electric version

    Here is another version of this where I am using my electric. Its a PRS SE singlecut, for the record. Here is the link

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nTm0...os=T3ag47nOvIc

  9. #9
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyd929 View Post
    I didn't plan it that way but I just realized it covers a full 16 bars, schweet.
    Not really surprising, as it's a 4-chord cycle repeated 4 times...

    It's kind of neat that it ends up an octave below where it began (or would lead to a chord an octave below the first).

    Generally I think they're mostly really nice voicings. Just a few comments...

    Chord 2 - Cm7b5/Eb - is really just Ebm6. (Eb sounds like the root in that voicing

    That 4th chord as it stands is an inversion of Abm7b5, or Bm6. Or a rootless E9. It does work in the sequence, it's just the name. When you leave the root out of an altered dom7, it isn't really an altered dom7 any more - typically it becomes its tritone sub, which is more or less what's happening here.

    But it's an interesting observation, that you can basically see this as a sequence of 3 m7b5 chords, following the m7: Ebm7 - Cm7b5 - Fm7b5- Abm7b5. Or Ebm7 - Ebm6 - Abm6 - Bm6.
    The latter highlights the melodic minor association with both the ii and V chords in a minor key. The Ab melodic minor scale will fit the ii chord (Fm7b5) and the B melodic minor scale the V chord (Bb7alt).
    And if your tonic wasn't a m7, you could apply Eb melodic minor to chord 1 and 2!

    I guess in general I think the voice-leading all works well, and a lot of the changes are really sweet. I'd just prefer some of the chords to be in root position occasionally - when they are in your sequence I think it works better (eg chord 8, where the #5/b6 resolves down to 5).

    IOW, I think the sequence is too much about the voice-leading. It's a great exercise in that principle - works great on that level - but the musicality of it suffers because of that narrow focus. I keep wanting to put 9ths on the chords occasionally, as well as more roots in the bass, a more mobile bass line, just for variety. (Without losing the voice-leading in the other voices of course.)

    An inspiring exercise, anyway!

  10. #10
    Did I say that out loud ? joeyd929's Avatar
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    Framework

    This is just a basic framework, I would like to take it a step further and put some of those other bass notes in as well as other chord tones. I guess this is what I would consider for me, a good starting point to work off of.

    I like the idea of "staying out of the way" when I play rhythm guitar for jazz musicians. For years I had this idea that you had to play big full chords, but that was because Rock was my original background.

    It took me a while to see that with jazz, guitar should compliment the other instruments with rhythm that stays clear of most altered notes, at least until I have a better feel of how to use them.

    As far as the fourth chord, I see what you mean but since I am cycling a minor i vi ii V progression, I keep referring to it as the Bb dominant chord of that progression.

    Recently I started trying to utilize the link between 9th, minor7b5 and minor 6 chords because as you said, it really is a tritone sub. What I mean is that sometimes when a chord is called for , lets say a C9th.

    Sometimes the chord I need is right under my nose but Im not seeing it because I was not familiar with the conversion. I may see C9 on the chart but if Im near G , I can play Gminor6 and achieve the result I want.

    C9 = Eminor7b5 = Gminor6.

    It takes a good deal of analyzing for me still at this point because Im still a teeny grasshopper in the kung fu of Jazz.

  11. #11
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyd929 View Post
    This is just a basic framework, I would like to take it a step further and put some of those other bass notes in as well as other chord tones. I guess this is what I would consider for me, a good starting point to work off of.

    I like the idea of "staying out of the way" when I play rhythm guitar for jazz musicians. For years I had this idea that you had to play big full chords, but that was because Rock was my original background.
    Right! In which case, omitting the roots of each chord altogether would be an important alternative - as well as offering some easier shapes!
    Quote Originally Posted by joeyd929 View Post
    As far as the fourth chord, I see what you mean but since I am cycling a minor i vi ii V progression, I keep referring to it as the Bb dominant chord of that progression.
    Understood. In a jazz scenario (where you'd likely be playing rootless voicings - as I'm suggesting in fact!), the bass would have the Bb, and that's how that voicing would work.
    Quote Originally Posted by joeyd929 View Post
    It takes a good deal of analyzing for me still at this point because Im still a teeny grasshopper in the kung fu of Jazz.
    I think you're doing great, actually. You seem to have a real feel for how these things are supposed to work.
    (speaking as a fellow grasshopper, that is...)

  12. #12
    Did I say that out loud ? joeyd929's Avatar
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    Melody - chords improv

    My ultimate goal is to learn and understand how to improvise melody/chords and also chord solos (lots of rootless voicings here no doubt) Single note soloing is another goal but I get this more than the chord/melody thing for some reason.

    In an effort to better understand the bottom end of jazz, I started playing bass recently, going to an open mic tonight to jam with both of my music teachers, one plays guitar and the other plays keyboards.

    Just for fun, here is a link to me jamming with these cats a few months back in Rocky Hill Connecticut. The other guitar player is this dude from Turkey named Sinar Bakir with the ibanes double cut guitar. (not my guitar teacher) He is quite the jazz player, Hartt college grad, came here on a scholarship.

    Here is a link to me jamming with the guys from back in June. We are playing Blue Bossa. I take a solo at about 1:20 and this was really the first time I jammed live with others, while attempting to get through some key changes. I hit a bad note here and there, but hey, Im learning.. Here is the link. http://www.youtube.com/user/rjrustig...12/gTrHgzHSw7I

    Every time I jam with these guys I discover just what I do NOT know yet but I always walk away with something new to play around with, or at least come away with my own things to improve on. Im am playing my PRS SE singlecut here. Thanks again for the encouragement also. Joe :-)

  13. #13
    Did I say that out loud ? joeyd929's Avatar
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    Bass line leads to voicings

    The voicings that are being played in this 16 bar 1625 thing are by default, my main focus when coming up with this was to change the bass line from simply following root to root.

    Since I only used two specific inversions, 1735 and 3157, the options were limited to four (chord can go either way) when choosing the next chord with the bass note being ascending as I had intended to experiment with. Whatever chord I chose had a specific sound but I was letting the bass note dictate the motion for the experiment.

    My point is that I can omit the bass note and just use the voicings but I could have never comp up with those voicings if I tried to "get creative". It would never have come out like that. So now Im curious to see what other voicings are in there somewhere if I take the experiment a little further....

    Maybe the next step is to add a third inversion to the mix and try the same thing from the beginning. This could change up the bass line, depending on how the inversion is stacked. The additional inversion could have a 9th, or 13th or whatever. The 7#5#9 chord is cool, maybe I can add that one. Not sure yet.

    I don't know if the bass notes will be the 1 3 5 or 7 but it doesn't matter, as long as it is the right chord for the job at this point. Its only an exercise in learning.

  14. #14
    Did I say that out loud ? joeyd929's Avatar
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    extend to 32 bars

    To mix it up I tried adding a full 4 chord progression with bass moving root to root before and after each of the 4 groups of chords in the original 16 bar. It kind of mixes it up and keeps going back to the typical root to root.

    This way it can extend 32 bars and doesn't use everything in one shot, it breaks it up and adds a little color to the whole thing. One other thing, I was trying to determine how to end it and (IMO) the last 4 chords before the final chord sounds best if I start at the Ebminor 7 with the b7 in the bass. It moves chromatically down to Bb Dominant, then just play the final chord. It seems to have that ending sort of thing happening if you know what I mean.

    I will record it that way and send a link.
    Last edited by joeyd929; 10-29-2010 at 03:27 PM. Reason: more details needed

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