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Thread: chords

  1. #1
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    Arrow chords

    whats the difference between a sus2 chord and a add9 chord?

  2. #2
    i Breathe ... Admin Guni's Avatar
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    Hi Batboy,

    'sus' chords always suspend the third:

    Csus2: c d g
    Csus4: c f g

    whereas 'add' adds a tesion to the chord:

    Cadd9: c e g d
    (C major triad with added tension 9)

    Guni

  3. #3
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    Question Re-harmonization

    Hello,

    I am reading the documents written by Guni (triads, 7thchords, arpeggios and scales), and I have a question that may have some interest for everybody (or it might be really stupid...).

    When we harmonize the major scale with tetrachords we get 7th chords, wright? Let see this in Cmaj:

    We would have

    Cmaj7 Dmin7 Emin7 Fmaj7 G7 Amin7 Bmin7b5

    I ii iii IV V vi vii

    ok, lets see for eg that we are playing some tune under the progression

    I ii iii ii V I or something like that. Which for C would be Cmaj, Dmin7, Emin7, Dmin7, G7 and Cmaj7 again.

    Something quite common I have found in a lot examples are like "transition chords" between:

    Cmaj/// Dmin7/// Emin7// Eb7 Dmin7/// G7 and back to Cmaj7.

    This new chord, Eb7 sounds nice if it's play just as a transition to the Dmin7 and I gess it comes from the re-harmonization of the Emin7 to give some "freshure" to the tune because it actually doesn't change anything. Until here everything is all right, but I want to transpose the key in terms of "ok my singer is not be able to sing the song in C due to the annihilation of a blottle of whiskey :-) - I like that one - and I want to explain the band the progression in terms of I ii ii ii V I but now in Bb for example how I call the transition chord? Because that Eb7 chord doesn't belong to the C key major, does it? something like iiib7??

    And also why can you change that E-7 (EGBD) to Eb7 (Eb-G-Bb-Db) if there is only one common note? I think this is probably deep in the reharmonization world which scares me quite a lot, but I would appreciate some thoughs.

    I hope this makes some sense.......

    and sorry if the answer is obvious.....

    Guni, thanks again for those documents. Seriously you could write a book with that stuff. The theory concepts are easy to find in any Jazz book, but the exercices you propose for applying the concepts are not, and they are great! Cheers man.

  4. #4
    i Breathe ... Admin Guni's Avatar
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    Hi Schnautze,

    First of all you shouln't be scared by music theory It's not that of a mystery actually .....

    Originally posted by Schnautze
    When we harmonize the major scale with tetrachords we get 7th chords
    sorry for being picky:
    tetrachord is not the correct term. a tetrachord stands for the first four (or last four) notes of a major scale, eg c d e f in c major (1st tetrachord) and g a b c (2nd tetrachord). So we harmonize the major scale with thirds....

    You are asking some very good questions here. They involve topics that I will need to write about when I will continue with my chordscale articles.
    Lemme try to point you into the right direction as it's really quite a huge topic. I hope this won't be too confusing.
    For ease of use you can use somthing like bIII7 for your example above. This will enable you to transpose it correctly. Thing is that this description doesn't really describe the function of the chord and thus its sound.

    okok ...... fasten seatbelts ....

    Secondary Dominants (or Diatonic Functioning Dominants)
    Dominants that do have their root on a diatonic note and resolve down a fifth to a diatonic chord.

    Say you have this chordprogression in C:
    Cmaj7 Am7 Dm7 G7

    The Am7 can be made a secondary dominant (root is part of the c major scale - and it resolves down a perfect fifth to Dm7)

    Cmaj7 A7 Dm7 G7

    In terms of analyses you could say that's a Imaj7 VI7 IIm7 V7 progression. I am saying could as this doesn't really describe the function of the chord. It's function is resolving to the IIm7 chord and therefore the best description is V7 of II or to use the Berklee method: V7/II

    Imj7 V7/II IIm7 Imaj7

    Still with me?

    Ok, now there's a technique called tritone substitution. In short this means that for example instead of using G7 Cmaj7 we can use Db7 Cmaj7 (G to Db is a tritone / b5).

    Going back to our A7 example we can now apply the tritone substitution, thus substituting A7 with Eb7.

    Cmaj7 Eb7 Dm7 G7

    see that this is the chord ya are asking about?

    Now these dominant chords are called 'subV's as they are a substitution for the 'original secondary dominants'.

    So, Eb7 is a subV7 of II or subV7/II

    Imj7 subV7/II IIm7 V7

    Once you understand this relationship you will be able to easily transform this into different keys.

    say Bb:

    Bbmaj7 Db7 Cm7 F7

    LOL - this was the quickest lesson about secondary and sub dominants ever - i hope it's useful

    Guni

  5. #5
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    Very useful mate!! Thx.

    So let's see if I've done my homework... sorry but still scared with this stuff...

    For the progression

    Fmaj7 Dmin7 Gmin C7 Fmaj7

    1) Secondary dominant

    Fmaj7 D7 Gmin C7 Fmaj7

    2) Tritone substitution

    Fmaj7 Ab7 G-7 C7 Fmaj7




    I had read some of this substitions before but I don't see them easily.

    To sumarize what I know in Re-harmonization:

    If we want to change some chords of a progression we can do:

    1) Add available tensions: eg C7 turns to C13 in a blues

    2) secondary dominant: you change the chord to dominant IF it its root belongs to the diatonic scale + resolves down a fifth to a diatonic chord. eg Amin7 turns to A7 if there is a Dmin7 afterwards.

    3) Tritone Subsititution

    You apply this technique to a secondary dominant up a tritone. (and something else maybe?) eg A7 turns to Eb7 + D-7 + Cmaj7.

    all right...... I think my head is completely fried so far ....

    Guni, is there like lots of these techniques? How do you apply this stuff to really guitar playing?

    When Joe Pass goes mental and starts doing thousands of chords, or chord soloing, he does that kind of subsitutions on real time?

    In improvisation terms, if I have a bass line playing something diatonic in C and I start playing our example, once the non substituted, and in the second round the substituted one, and then I change the dominants 7 to 13 and things like that am I chord soloing??

    ....

    I'm just trying to see the whole "iceberg" ......

    Thanks for the help.

    All the best

  6. #6
    i Breathe ... Admin Guni's Avatar
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    Hi Schnautze,

    I think you understand that stuff. All you say is correct.

    A few more things:

    When ya add tensions to a chord (C7 becomes C713) it's not really a reharmonisation, as you just explore possible colours given within the harmonic settings (C7 = Mixolydian = 13 is a tension in Mixo = C713 can be used to ad flavour).

    Reharmonisation is a technique used in arranging and composition. Here's a description by Randy Felts in his Berklee material about reharm: "Reharmonisation is the musical equivalent of a new paint job on an old building. The original harmonic progression supporting a melodic line is 'repainted' to provide a new version of an old tune. The melody itself is usually left untouched except for rhythmic variations." (Thanks Randy )

    Guni, is there like lots of these techniques?
    Yes there are But with secondary dominats and sub Vs you already have some powerful tools as they can be extended to really break out of diatonic patterns.

    Another technique based on secondary dominants are extended dominants, ie a secondary dominant resolves to another sec. dominant etc ....
    Example:
    Cmaj7 E7 A7 D7 G7 Cmaj7

    now you could use sub Vs to reharm the above:
    Cmaj7 E7 Eb7 D7 Db7 Cmaj7

    This you will see a lot in Jazz standards.

    When Joe Pass goes mental and starts doing thousands of chords, or chord soloing, he does that kind of subsitutions on real time?
    hehe yes (real nasty )

    In improvisation terms, if I have a bass line playing something diatonic in C and I start playing our example, once the non substituted, and in the second round the substituted one, and then I change the dominants 7 to 13 and things like that am I chord soloing??
    Well, yes and no. you see the important thing is the melody that goes with the chords. Say, you take a jazz standard: you can reharmonise that tune in a way that just the melody stays the same but with the chords you create a completely different mood for the tune.

    Or take a Blues: Instead of playing over and over the same turnaround at the end of a chorus you can add some spice with different reharmonisations at the end.

    I mean there are so many ways to apply this stuff. You could use reharm ideas in your solo while the rhythm section plays the standard progreassion,etc ... etc ....

    Laterz,

    Guni

  7. #7
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    Question

    Yep,

    I see the whole thing. How do you practice this theory? I mean you just take a simple song of the beatles and do the last process to the chords trying to keep the same melody at the highest note of a chord. I feel that would be to hard for me at the minute but it may work.

    Let's see one simple song like The house of the rising sun, I think the chords are:

    3/4 Amin// Cmaj// Dmaj// Fmaj// Amin// Cmaj// and Emaj//

    Well not sure of the chords but it's something like that. If we try to keep the melody of the lyrics: There is a-a house I-in New Orleans... they call the Ris-'in' Sun...

    My first problem is to know the key of this song. It looks like Cmaj, but that Dmaj shoudn't be minor?? Why is it major??

    well anyway let's say it's in Cmaj: (cos it can't be Fmaj nor Emaj nor Dmaj... can be?)

    vi// I// "VI"// IV// vi// I// iii//

    god.... there's no fifth chord neither.... well there's obviously something I'm missing.

    any idea??

  8. #8
    Resident Curmudgeon szulc's Avatar
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    The song is in A minor:

    i III IV VI (Am C D F)
    i III V (Am C E)
    i III IV VI (Am C D F)
    i V i V (Am E Am E)

    A B C D E F G ( A Aeolian or Natural Minor)
    A B C D E F# G# ( A Melodic Minor)


    The IV and V chord are borrowed from Melodic (actually the V is borrowed from Harmonic)

    Chords in Aeolian:

    i iio III iv iv VI VII (Aeolian)

    Chords in Melodic:

    i ii III IV V vio viio (Melodic)

    Chords in Harmonic:

    i iio III+ iv V VI viio (Harmonic)
    Last edited by szulc; 07-15-2002 at 01:21 PM.

  9. #9
    i Breathe ... Admin Guni's Avatar
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    yep that's it.

    Guni

  10. #10
    Resident Curmudgeon szulc's Avatar
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    Thanks for your approval!

  11. #11
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    Right,

    thanks Szulc for pointing out. I've checked Guni's Chord scales part 3 article and everything is there explained.

    For natural minor we have

    Am Dm Em Am
    i iv v i

    The Harmonic minor we change the G to G# and thus the harmonized chord turns to V7 which gives a stronger cadence.

    As a general rule, if a chord progression doesn't fit with any major Key (if there isn't modulation) I have to try to find the key in the minor Keys?

    oK now if I want to re-paint this song and I want to play this but in a more Jazzy sound I am able to change the chords. And I don't sing, so I'll try also to incorporate the singing melody through my new chords.

    so the song is at follows:

    Am C D F
    Am C E
    Am C D F
    Am C E Am E

    oK can I try for instance something like: instead of C I'm going to take F#/C (F# tritone subsitution and C to keep the C sound in the bass line).

    I don't know if this sounds ok or not but it is theoretically correct?

    And also if I want to play the melody and the chords with only one guitar, I could maybe add those melody notes as tensions. When the song starts: There Am[is(D) a(D)-a(E)] F[house(F)] i-in New Orleans ...

    The first bar wich is Am the singing notes are D and then E for that bar. So could I do something like changing Am to Am711 and Am712 played In the first bar?

    I hope what I am saying makes some sense....

    Thanks a lot folks.

  12. #12
    Resident Curmudgeon szulc's Avatar
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    The Song is In A, A What?.....

    A minor......

    The Song Was in A, from that it should be obvious that the key was not A major, since the main tonic chord always appeared as A minor, from there just decide which parallel minors are necessary to explain the chords in use.
    Last edited by szulc; 07-15-2002 at 07:00 PM.

  13. #13
    i Breathe ... Admin Guni's Avatar
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    Hi Schnautze,

    mmmm, I can't seem to follow your thoughts about chords and melody. Maybe you should get a leadsheet for House of the rising Sun ....

    As a first step I recommend that you convert all triads to 7th chords according to their function in HM MM and Natural Minor:

    Am7 Cmaj7 D7 Fmaj7
    Am7 Cmaj7 E7
    Am7 Cmaj7 D7 Fmaj7
    Am7 E7 Am7 E7

    This will actually give the tune a new flavour.

    Then you can try different tensions, like Am79 or Am711.

    Guni

  14. #14
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    yeahh,

    I'll get a good lead sheet and I'll do this more "seriously" otherwise I'll confuse you guys and also myself. Thanks for the advices.

    In order to learn reharmonizations I just maybe can check some standards or jazz blues charts. I actually have a book full of that stuff...

    see you later...

  15. #15
    i Breathe ... Admin Guni's Avatar
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    yeah cool - knowing your chordscales / modes with all available tensions is a first step. My articles should give you a pretty clear understanding about this for now (at least I hope so :-)

    It will take time to write articles about advanced topics. Actually, the problem is not writing 'em but to find a logical and practical way of getting this all across.

    But hang on in there - I'm on it

    Guni

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