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Thread: Melodic dictation

  1. #31
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    there won't be until the human genome is fully understood, but there will be.
    That's a matter of faith. It's a religious belief, IOW.
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    there is evidence all over the place. just not clearly scientific calculated evidence. but logic can deduce it with the little evidence we have
    You can hypothesise there is a genetic component, sure. But it's not necessary in order to explain the evidence so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    you justify differently. your conclusions are not based on sound reasoning, you begin with the conclusion, and you go with that.
    Absolutely not. I may have some prior biases, but so do you. I'm aware of them, and am happy to change my mind when proved wrong (and often have). If a music gene is discovered it won't bother me.
    My understanding (as far as it goes) is based on what I've seen and experienced, supported by what I've read. And yes, by some degree of rational thought.
    Your understanding would be similarly based, I guess.
    The difference between us is I don't say I "know" something when it's only a belief, however firm it may feel. (I could still be "pretty sure", without "knowing".)
    You cannot "know" what you say you know, even about yourself. You only have strong feelings, convictions.
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    you think one studies more than another, or better, or harder, or i don't know what your conclusions are, but they could be fabricated and completely unreal. greatly talented individuals are rare though so maybe you have not seen many differences between your students also, but still, i have seen students where clearly some have a sense of rhythm and some do not. but there are more factors. this is why it is rare. you could have great rhythm and be tone deaf. or not be tone deaf and have good rhythm, and be below average intelligence. or have a good ear, great rhythm and great intelligence.
    Sure. All those differences exist. But I don't believe they are inborn. I've met a few "talented" musicians in my time (not many, of course), but I saw nothing to indicate they were born that way - and plenty to indicate it was down to their upbringing and (maybe) their personality and attitude (both of which can also be down to upbringing).
    What they also all had in common was high intelligence - which I accept is at least partially genetic. (But of course not every intelligent person is musical.)
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    it is easy to find the wrong answers. you have found these answers with me, have you? of you think i suck? you haven't heard me play that much at all. nor heard any songs i've written. but you beat me in every single one of all these categories.
    Beat you? what do you mean?
    How well you play is no proof that your abilities are inborn.
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    you think people like me don't exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    and that's retarded, because i am right here. you're telling me i don't exist. but i do exist. i did get good grades without studying.
    Without studying at all? I guess you mean without studying hard. Obviously you must have studied something on those subjects or you would know nothing, and you would fail.
    I also got good grades at school (up to age 15 anyway) without trying hard at all - because I had a high IQ I guess. (As soon as I had to try, I stopped being interested, stopped studying and my grades suffered.)
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    my hands couldn't play guitar the first day i picked one up. but my mind could. you know what i mean?
    No. Unless you mean you had musical ideas and thoughts beforehand, but so did I, so does everyone who picks up an instrument out of choice. (I wrote 4 tunes the first week I had the guitar. I couldn't play, but I had those ideas.)

    You may very well be unusually gifted, I don't know (I haven't heard you). But you don't know if your gifts were inborn, that's my point. You can't say for certain even Mozart's gifts were entirely inborn (tho some element may have been).

  2. #32
    Registered User bluesking's Avatar
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    Can we create a nature Vs. nurture sub-forum please?

    What do visitors to our site make of us? Fingerpicking reels out BS and Jon perversely humours him.....

    Anyone noticed how the real musical topics have been few and far between lately? I for one am terrified to start many of my more pragmatic discussions relating to features in my practice schedule for fear that I will be given the proverbial "finger" (i.e. told at great and illeterate length how I miss the mark by talking about "dirty" concepts like theory, technique and practice).

    If we accept this kind of thing in our forums we may as well close all posts, prevent any new ones, and stick a sign on the front door saying "If you need to discuss music you clearly aren't any use as a musician. Please go and be re-born with intrinsic tallent and shut-up."

    "iBreatheBollocks" is where we are going.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    That's a matter of faith. It's a religious belief, IOW.
    no, it's a certainty because it has been arrived at scientifically. that's why i stated it with certainty. because i am certain. i don't believe. that's not my style.

    [quote]You can hypothesise there is a genetic component, sure. But it's not necessary in order to explain the evidence so far.[quote] you are forgetting i exist. i have evidence you have not seen.

    Absolutely not. I may have some prior biases, but so do you. I'm aware of them, and am happy to change my mind when proved wrong (and often have). If a music gene is discovered it won't bother me.
    My understanding (as far as it goes) is based on what I've seen and experienced, supported by what I've read. And yes, by some degree of rational thought.
    Your understanding would be similarly based, I guess.
    The difference between us is I don't say I "know" something when it's only a belief, however firm it may feel. (I could still be "pretty sure", without "knowing".)
    You cannot "know" what you say you know, even about yourself. You only have strong feelings, convictions.
    no, i know. that's why i say i know. i am certain. i know. i don't believe. you think i believe, that's different. i have no bias. i begin knowing nothing, believing nothing and only know what i have come to be certain about.

    Sure. All those differences exist. But I don't believe they are inborn. I've met a few "talented" musicians in my time (not many, of course), but I saw nothing to indicate they were born that way - and plenty to indicate it was down to their upbringing and (maybe) their personality and attitude (both of which can also be down to upbringing).
    What they also all had in common was high intelligence - which I accept is at least partially genetic. (But of course not every intelligent person is musical.)
    intelligence for one, is wholly genetic. so is sense of rhythm and so is having a good ear. you don't see that, i'm tired of telling you. i don't care. remain ignorant.

    Beat you? what do you mean?
    How well you play is no proof that your abilities are inborn.
    you know more theory, you have played longer, practiced harder, every single category you could think of of musicianship that makes musicians better, is in your favour. and yet, whether or not you are a better musician than i am remains to be seen, or whether you are a better guitarist. and i don't only play guitar.

    Without studying at all? I guess you mean without studying hard. Obviously you must have studied something on those subjects or you would know nothing, and you would fail.
    no, i never studied, i just listened intently in class and went to every class, and that was enough for me. i got 100% once in a genetics test and i had not studied a single second for it.

    I also got good grades at school (up to age 15 anyway) without trying hard at all - because I had a high IQ I guess. (As soon as I had to try, I stopped being interested, stopped studying and my grades suffered.)
    No. Unless you mean you had musical ideas and thoughts beforehand, but so did I, so does everyone who picks up an instrument out of choice. (I wrote 4 tunes the first week I had the guitar. I couldn't play, but I had those ideas.)
    everybody writes songs when they first pickup a guitar. the difference is the quality of the songs. you don't need to try and prove to me you have the genes of a musician. none of that matters to me. show me your music and i'll tell you if you have the genes or not. it's obvious to me. do you count? can you dance? you told me yourself you cannot imagine the sounds of the theory. this means you do not know what you will hear until you play the note or the chord, this means you rely on theory to write your music for you. does it not? you might think you have a high IQ, but you don't know me yet. it's all relative.

    You may very well be unusually gifted, I don't know (I haven't heard you). But you don't know if your gifts were inborn, that's my point. You can't say for certain even Mozart's gifts were entirely inborn (tho some element may have been).
    gifts are inborn, results are not in entirety. no, i do know they were inborn, because i am gifted in all things. or, are you going to tell me that i somehow disappear in some other dimension for a period of time and practice various different things for a period of time and then warp back on earth? the same amount of time in life is available to me than is in others. the first time i touch some thing i excel far greater than the average of human beings. in all things. i pickup things much quicker. in all things. but in music, i know that if i had no ear, and i had no sense of rhythm like i have, that music i could not be good at. also others things, i would be less good at. things that require timing. lots of physical activities require a good sense of rhythm. i can notice easily people who have a good sense of rhythm and people who don't. I know that people who have a good sense of rhythm don't need to count when learning music. and i know that if i am going to teach someone who doesn't have good rhythm to play music, i need to show them how to count. even though i never have. and you will say that all are musical. well, yes, all can learn to play music, some need to count to do it, some don't, because they are inherently different in a biological sense. and one has the much greater advantage over the other. did you ever count? i didn't. do some people need it? yes. do all people need it? no. fact. explain that one.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking View Post
    Can we create a nature Vs. nurture sub-forum please?

    What do visitors to our site make of us? Fingerpicking reels out BS and Jon perversely humours him.....

    Anyone noticed how the real musical topics have been few and far between lately? I for one am terrified to start many of my more pragmatic discussions relating to features in my practice schedule for fear that I will be given the proverbial "finger" (i.e. told at great and illeterate length how I miss the mark by talking about "dirty" concepts like theory, technique and practice).

    If we accept this kind of thing in our forums we may as well close all posts, prevent any new ones, and stick a sign on the front door saying "If you need to discuss music you clearly aren't any use as a musician. Please go and be re-born with intrinsic tallent and shut-up."

    "iBreatheBollocks" is where we are going.
    Just because you don't understand what i'm talking about that doesn't mean i'm reeling out BS.

    why does everybody think that just because genetic talent exists that theory is useless? you hand me the most talented kid and ask me to teach them music and you think i won't teach them theory? please. if i thought nothing of theory i wouldn't be here. i'm just saying, theory is not everything. i'm not saying theory is nothing.
    Last edited by fingerpikingood; 04-21-2010 at 12:35 PM.

  5. #35
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    no, it's a certainty because it has been arrived at scientifically. that's why i stated it with certainty. because i am certain. i don't believe. that's not my style.
    This is getting tiresome. (But - sorry bluesking, and others - I still can't resist.)
    You said "there won't be until the human genome is fully understood, but there will be." [my emphasis]
    The future tense indicates faith. The future is not a certainty. Some things are more certain than others of course (like the sun coming up tomorrow , but music genes remain to be discovered.
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    You can hypothesise there is a genetic component, sure. But it's not necessary in order to explain the evidence so far.
    you are forgetting i exist. i have evidence you have not seen.
    OK, let's see it. And I don't mean your beliefs about yourself, or personal anecdotes about your abilities.
    You have evidence that your skills were inborn? What could that possibly consist of?
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    no, i know. that's why i say i know. i am certain. i know. i don't believe. you think i believe, that's different. i have no bias. i begin knowing nothing, believing nothing and only know what i have come to be certain about.
    [Sigh] This is semantics. "Certainty" is not "knowledge".
    Certainty is a particularly strong kind of belief. A 100% belief, if you like.
    but it's not knowledge until it can be proved objectively, scientifically.
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    intelligence for one, is wholly genetic.
    Define "intelligence"...
    If you mean IQ, you may be right. But it's a little beside the point. (It's taking this thread hijack even further off topic.)
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    so is sense of rhythm and so is having a good ear. you don't see that, i'm tired of telling you.
    Clearly, you're not.
    I don't see that, any more than I "see" that there is such a thing as God, or intelligent design - however obvious it might be to some people.
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    you know more theory, you have played longer, practiced harder, every single category you could think of of musicianship that makes musicians better, is in your favour. and yet, whether or not you are a better musician than i am remains to be seen, or whether you are a better guitarist. and i don't only play guitar.
    No need to make this personal. You may well be a better musician than me. (I do play other instruments too, btw, but this is not a scoring contest.)
    How old were you when you first touched a musical instrument? (And I take it you could play it perfectly from the first second...)
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    no, i never studied, i just listened intently in class and went to every class,
    I call that "studying". (See, semantics again...)
    Of course, you need a certain intelligence to make the best of that learning method, and I'll grant you that degree of inheritance at least.
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    and that was enough for me. i got 100% once in a genetics test and i had not studied a single second for it.
    You just remembered the lesson(s). Fine, and congratulations. But you're using the word "studied" oddly, IMO. I guess you mean you didn't read books on it, or revise what you had absorbed.
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    everybody writes songs when they first pickup a guitar. the difference is the quality of the songs. you don't need to try and prove to me you have the genes of a musician. none of that matters to me. show me your music and i'll tell you if you have the genes or not. it's obvious to me. do you count? can you dance? you told me yourself you cannot imagine the sounds of the theory.
    I did? Can you give me a quote or link?
    You're misusing the word "cannot" again. I can imagine the sound of most music I see written, but I'm sure there would be details I'd miss.
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    ...i am gifted in all things...
    ...the first time i touch some thing i excel far greater than the average of human beings....
    ...in all things. i pickup things much quicker. in all things.
    I believe, I believe! Hail the messiah!

    Seriously, none of this proves anything. However stunningly brilliant you are (at ALL things!), you have no proof you were born like that. I do understand that it must seem like that, when you can pick things up, do things without being shown how. But music is something we all have in our heads, like language.
    You weren't born being able to speak (or maybe you were???) - you learned it by copying others, and using normal human brain function to process the input. IMO, music is the same - or very similar. We all hear a vast amount of music before we attempt to play an instrument (if indeed we ever do). We know what sounds wrong and what sounds right. Everyone knows a wrong note when they hear one.
    What most of us find difficult (to varying degrees) is getting our fingers to operate the instrument in a way that produces the sounds we want (and not the sounds we don't want).
    So - if we are all born musical (potentially at least) - how to explain the very clear and striking differences in learning ability later on?

    What I'm saying is that my experience and observations (in 45 years playing instruments and working with other musicians, around 10 years teaching children and adults) leads me to believe that evident differences in ability seem to be wholly down to (a) age at which someone begins playing (or singing) and (b) environmental influence, meaning everything from parental encouragement, family example, peer pressure, contact with other musicians, to exposure to various media.

    (Someone who begins young may of course give up music for a while, and take it up again later. They will not be as good as those who keep at it, but still better than those who don't begin at all until later. I see this as a tendency - there are a lot of other variables, of course, including degree of enthusiasm and intensity and method of practice.)

    Those who are bad at music (who can't feel rhythm, or hear pitch clearly) have had their natural musicality stunted through disuse in childhood - that's my belief, or hypothesis. (Not fact, or knowledge. It just fits all the evidence I'm aware of. Including the little I know about you.)
    There could well be genetic components to musical skill (ie genetic differences between people that lead to some finding it easier than others). I accept that possibility because I don't know. But I have seen a convincingly close correlation between the above two conditions and musical ability - which is why I say I see no need to include a genetic dimension.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking View Post
    Can we create a nature Vs. nurture sub-forum please?
    What do visitors to our site make of us? Fingerpicking reels out BS and Jon perversely humours him.....
    Anyone noticed how the real musical topics have been few and far between lately? I for one am terrified to start many of my more pragmatic discussions relating to features in my practice schedule for fear that I will be given the proverbial "finger" (i.e. told at great and illeterate length how I miss the mark by talking about "dirty" concepts like theory, technique and practice).
    If we accept this kind of thing in our forums we may as well close all posts, prevent any new ones, and stick a sign on the front door saying "If you need to discuss music you clearly aren't any use as a musician. Please go and be re-born with intrinsic tallent and shut-up."
    "iBreatheBollocks" is where we are going.
    Yep, I completely agree re. posting proper musical topics instead of the stuff in this thread. But in my own defence, as I said in the earlier post - I only replied here because genuine new music posts seem so few now ...

    ... so;- how can we encourage new posts and new members, discussing proper music/playing issues? I tried to do that 6 months back, but behind the scenes wrangling ensured it all got kicked into the long grass.

    I think it's absolutely essential that we fix this problem.

    I suggested before that the mods plus several of the most active members here (inc. yourself & JonR), get together in the backstage forum and thrash this out to come up with a bold new strategy. I'm repeating the same suggestion again now. And I suggest we stop wasting time and just DO IT! ... NOW!

    Ian.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crossroads View Post
    Yep, I completely agree re. posting proper musical topics instead of the stuff in this thread. But in my own defence, as I said in the earlier post - I only replied here because genuine new music posts seem so few now ...

    ... so;- how can we encourage new posts and new members, discussing proper music/playing issues? I tried to do that 6 months back, but behind the scenes wrangling ensured it all got kicked into the long grass.

    I think it's absolutely essential that we fix this problem.

    I suggested before that the mods plus several of the most active members here (inc. yourself & JonR), get together in the backstage forum and thrash this out to come up with a bold new strategy. I'm repeating the same suggestion again now. And I suggest we stop wasting time and just DO IT! ... NOW!

    Ian.
    "Backstage" forum? You mean the member announcements one?

    I'm not a mod, of course, and to be honest this kind of thing doesn't bother me that much. No one has to read this stuff, and they can always post something on topic (for a change) or read other threads. I don't see that such things will put new (or even old) members off, if that's the worry. It shows the board is lively and opinionated at least.

    However, I'd be happy if the mods were a little stricter on off-topic rambles like this (I'm happy to have myself cut off in this case - us addicts need some outside help sometimes ).

    (My own beef with the mods is they seem a little slow at dealing with the frequent spam attacks this site gets, that similar sites don't seem to suffer from.)

  8. #38
    Registered User bluesking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    "Backstage" forum? You mean the member announcements one?
    I am equally confused.

    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    I'm not a mod, of course, and to be honest this kind of thing doesn't bother me that much. No one has to read this stuff, and they can always post something on topic (for a change) or read other threads. I don't see that such things will put new (or even old) members off, if that's the worry. It shows the board is lively and opinionated at least.
    I've had fingerpicking on my ignore list for quite a long while. The problem is that these sweeping debates come up with frightening regularity, making him impossible to practically ignore. Otherwise I just read everyone's responses to him and it makes it (even more) frustrating.

    If it makes any difference, I can say that I AM put off. "lively and opinionated" is a euphamism. There are millions of forums on the internet which are dominated by flame wars, lurkers and illiteratii. Is that something in their favour? They are "lively and opinionated" in this exact same way.

    Because of the bad vibes around here I don't really feel like contributing something pragmatic. I have loads of diagrams I would be happy to share, lots of issues with my practice schedule which I need help with, lots of observations I have made recently (related to playing) and I love to help out other people here whenever I feel I can. However, I am not prepared to do this if my posts and threads are going to be hijacked and I am going to be repeatedly criticised for discussing pragmatic things because they "take all the art out of music". Sure, there is a wide spectrum of such opinions from all our members, but no-one goes on and on and on and on about our philosophical differences. Most of us preffer to revel in what we share, not how we differ. If we do differ we state it reasonably (mostly using intelligible english) and often agree to disagree. We certainly do not try to hijack every 5th thread to guide it to our pet philosophical debate.

    I have had several conversations with other regular members on this forum and expect that I am not the only one holding this (or a similar) point of view.

    I remember before I joined this forum. I thought I had found a gold-mine because almost every post by you Jon or by Jed contained myriad gems of music theory explained in such a clear way that I simply had to join. Don't get me wrong, you still have your fair share of such great posts and I enjoy them to this day. However there are fewer new threads available for you to do this in and more and more of the kind of bollocks fingerpicking wants.

    He is dominating the board in such a fashion as to kill it.

    Frankly, I miss leegordo. At least his nonsense was short and to the point. Even he displayed a logical consistency beyond fingerpicking and didn't change his arguments in whatever way was likely to avoid him getting booted off the board. His posts were like controversial kick-starts to get discussion going between other members. Fingerpickings reek of empire building and carry a thin veneer of subtlety.

    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    (My own beef with the mods is they seem a little slow at dealing with the frequent spam attacks this site gets, that similar sites don't seem to suffer from.)
    Obviously I can cope with a larger number of these than you. This isn't a problem even on the same scale from my point of view. When I see a post selling viagra, even if its there for a few days, its easy to ignore because there isn't 3 pages of rambling nonsense to trawl through to identify it as garbage.
    Last edited by bluesking; 04-21-2010 at 10:50 AM.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking View Post
    I am equally confused.


    I've had fingerpicking on my ignore list for quite a long while. The problem is that these sweeping debates come up with frightening regularity, making him impossible to practically ignore. Otherwise I just read everyone's responses to him and it makes it (even more) frustrating.
    I wrote a lengthy response to this - - but decided criticism of other members in public was inappropriate (as we are not mods).

    I do tend to agree with everything you say, but I guess I feel less strongly. I even have some sympathy for - and agreement with - fingerpickingood on many issues. I just can't resist picking him up on confusing language.

    But from now I am going to TRY.... (resisting that is).

    We can continue this rant via PMs if you like.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    I wrote a lengthy response to this - - but decided criticism of other members in public was inappropriate (as we are not mods).
    That is very gallant of you. However I have come to realise almost everyone feels the same way and remaining silent about it only isolates us from each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    I do tend to agree with everything you say, but I guess I feel less strongly. I even have some sympathy for - and agreement with - fingerpickingood on many issues. I just can't resist picking him up on confusing language.
    If you think I have a problem with fingerpicking because I find his opinions disagreeable you have misunderstood me. I disagree with almost everyone at times including you. I do not feel that justifies criticism. Its his behaviour I have a problem with rather than his opinions. Notice that I only entered into this thread to (generally) agree with fingerpicking.

    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    We can continue this rant via PMs if you like.
    As you say, we are not mods. Whether you class this as a rant is up to you. Either way, if I don't say it in public the mods will never know and any members who agree with me will continue to suffer in shameful silence. I am past caring whether it makes me seem like an a$$hole to be the one to voice this publicly. I'd rather be the a$$hole on a good forum than a saint in a ****-pile.
    Last edited by bluesking; 04-21-2010 at 12:50 PM.
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    If i say when i let go of the ball it will fall, is not a matter of faith it is certainty because i know gravity exists. knowing what will occur and having are faith are separate.

    i had asked you once if others could hear the sounds of the theory you were discussing and your response was that you couldn't even hear the sounds when speaking the words so why would they be able to. i don't remember the exact wording, it was in some other thread, i'm not going to go looking for it.

    ya my evidence is that i've known myself ever since i was born. or at least soon thereafter. nobody that knows me well disputes this. people can tell the difference between me and others. it has been like this for me with all things. i am quick to pickup all things. but ya, sometimes people would think i must have had prior experience in stuff and that's why i'm so good, but i didn't, i know that, they don't. so for you, i am not evidence, because you will justify my attributes falsely, whereas to me, i am evidence. you can trust me or not, but i promise you, one day science will tell you this. my evidence goes much further than that though, but evidence need not be a measurement. it can be long thought logical arguments, arguments and observations that lead to only one possible conclusion. i have such evidence, but it is long i would need to write a novel to show you, and even then you probably wouldn't understand. although you might if your IQ is as high as you think it is.

    knowledge provides certainty.

    if i were to define intelligence you'd have to read the novel i was just referring to. it is not IQ. IQ is not intelligence. it is a score on a test that intelligence is useful for getting a good grade when you take it. intelligence is something else, it is that thing that helps you do well on your IQ, so what is it? now that's a good question. I have an answer but it is long to explain. it is genetic though. it is not knowledge, or ability to solve problems, these things can be taught. it is what cannot be taught, the way your mind thinks. how do you make ideas? you don't know, they occur to you. your brain just thinks. you cannot will yourself to be smarter, you cannot practice and become smarter. your brain can get better at doing stuff you train it to do, certainly. but this is not increasing your intelligence.

    ok, well then you're blind and apparently i can't help you see. so you can either trust me or not, that's what it comes down to. if you can't understand and see for yourself that people are inherently different, and if i have nto been able to show you so far, then you are stuck either having faith or being without it. but i need not be stuck with this faith business because i know, you do not, so ya, for you it will need to be faith.


    i stated earlier obviously my hands could not play instruments well at first. you were 16 when you picked up guitar, i was slightly older than that when i picked up guitar and drums and bass. i had had some minor lessons with piano when i was younger, but i didn't get far, i never studied, i never used what i had learned there, and i had a keyboards thing in grade 8 for a year, which all the students at my school did, and in grade 7 played the trumpet for a year, which everything about it i forgot right away, and trombone for a year in grade 8 also, i don't remember where any of the notes on those are, but you could give them to me and i'll make you sweet music. heck give me any instrument on planet earth, and as long as producing the sound itself isn't too tricky, or selecting the notes themselves too tricky, i'll make you a sweet song. i don't need to know where A is or how to make a major scale. it doesn't matter. any instrument. so ya, i had a tiny little bit of other instruments a little earlier than you did. but they were not useful. and anyways i'm not just talkign about instruments. i'm talkign about all things. math, sports, physics, dancing, anything. I am never perfect when i'm new at something but i always have a head start on the huge majority of people.

    i also only got an electric guitar when i was 16, and played it on and off with piano and drums until end of highschool, then i had not touched a guitar until i bought my acoustic about 4 years ago. so really if you count the number of years i've been playing guitar that's about 8 or something, and even when i was in highschool i knew people who had played guitar longer.

    paying attention in class is not studying, studying is at home reading your books and memorizing and doing homework. listening in class is listening. listening is not studying, if you call that studying, then fine, call it studying i don't care about your semantics, the fact remains i only listened in class, and got good grades. that still is what it is no matter what you call it.

    i don't see how else you think one could possibly learn anything. not even einstein could discover basically all mankind had discovered in 10 000 years or so in just 20. i wasn't born with knowledge. obviously.

    not remembered the lessons, understood then and built knowledge with them. remembering is hard, knowing is easy.

    we don't have language all in our heads dummy. language was built over a long period of time. it is language that allows to think. we have all learned a language. but we are not born with it. most humans are all born with the capacity to learn language if that's what you mean. and ya, most humans can learn to play an instrument, but some are gifted at it and some aren't.

    all humans can learn to draw too, and play any sport, but some will always suck at those things and some will always be good.

    there is no music gene. there are genes, some of which are good for music, and it also just so happens that those genes are good for other things as well, necessarily since we evolved to have them, and musical ability is not a characteristic which aids in natural selection. but the other things those same traits allow does. so ya, i have good rhythm, a good ear, and high intelligence, and ya, this does help me pickup things very quickly, mostly intelligence and rhythm.

    save your breath and don't try to explain to me how the mind works. i'm sure you've studied this much less than i have.

    do you have children? you could then make an army of musical geniuses.

    so every child that learns some sort of music at a young age becomes talented at music? my other two siblings were treated the same as me, and taught music at a young age. my older sister actually went much farther in piano lessons than i did, she also took harp lessons. she is so far behind me musically. talent wise it is not even close, and yet according to you, she should be ahead. my other sister also practice music at a young age, but she dropped her instrument quite quickly and never took it up again.

    me, i discovered, the art in music, and figured out i didn't need to have a teacher and go to class to play it, and started playing again, and went in to many different instruments. and i picked them up very quickly. I also did computer music program for a while too. whatever, you don't need to believe me. i see you have faith and belief in your own hypothesis, and like a believer of religion, your mind is fixed and will not be changed. so be it. i won't try and change your mind anymore. what do i care what you think?

    maybe science will progress quickly enough to show you i'm right. this will only be settled at that point.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking View Post

    If you think I have a problem with fingerpicking because I find his opinions disagreeable you have misunderstood me. I disagree with almost everyone at times including you. I do not feel that justifies criticism. Its his behaviour I have a problem with rather than his opinions. Notice that I only entered into this thread to (generally) agree with fingerpicking.
    I don't believe you. you were going to agree with me again? lol. i was rude to you in a previous post, not sure if you read it, but it's playoff hockey here, my team had just lost and i'd had a few beers. so sorry, i just edited the statement not too long ago.

  13. #43
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    Silence.

    A tumbleweed blows across in the middle distance.

    Nothing to see here, folks. Move along now.

    (One can hope, can't one...)

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    ya sure, we can move along, but let it be noted that you said yourself that there you are uncertain, that what you have seen points to your position but does not provide certainty, and i tell you i am certain, and yet still you hold on to your idea with conviction and say i believe. and yet in my household, 3 of us grew up, in teh same home, at the same schools under the same conditions, and yet only one of us plays music as i do. the others can play some tunes but it's different. so you are uncertain, yet somehow certain enough to tell me i must be wrong, paradoxically.

    right? you think the answer can't be 'known' so then, you must not know. and i think the answer can be known, because i have found it. and based on very little, due to the fact you concede it cannot be known, you seem certain i am incorrect.

    that you do not know as i know, does not mean i am wrong. don't place your limitations on me.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    "Backstage" forum? You mean the member announcements one?
    I'm not a mod, of course, and to be honest this kind of thing doesn't bother me that much. No one has to read this stuff, and they can always post something on topic (for a change) or read other threads. I don't see that such things will put new (or even old) members off, if that's the worry. It shows the board is lively and opinionated at least.
    However, I'd be happy if the mods were a little stricter on off-topic rambles like this (I'm happy to have myself cut off in this case - us addicts need some outside help sometimes ).
    (My own beef with the mods is they seem a little slow at dealing with the frequent spam attacks this site gets, that similar sites don't seem to suffer from.)
    No I don't object to threads like this at all, and I doubt if it's even my place to object anyway. I'm not sure you'll ever convince fingerpicking of anything he isn't already "certain" of, but that's another thing entirely .

    Really I'm just agreeing with Bluesking that, quite apart from "subjective" threads like this one, iBreathemusic needs to encourage more active new members with more new discussion focused on music and playing issues.

    The backstage area/"forum" (perhaps "forum" was entirely the wrong word), is just an area where the mods and admin. can post about technical issues etc. I don't think other members see that area on-screen ... it's an off-screen posting area used to sort out stuff before making any public changes.

    Just re. mods being stricter with the spam - I don't think that's actually the problem ... the problem is the way iBreathemusic has been implemented/installed means it's wide open to any spam attacks. It seems that for some reason we don't have the standard blocking features enabled (we've all complained about it to admin many times) ... so the forum is wide to anyone posting as much spam as they like whenever they wish (which is several times every day) ... the only option open to the mods is to react when the spam appears & then slowly and painstakingly delete each spam message individually one at a time .


    Ian.

    all edits shown in red
    Last edited by Crossroads; 04-22-2010 at 01:45 PM.

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