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Thread: Melodic dictation

  1. #46
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    Guys - the following may just make matters worse (I was 50/50 about not posting it), but if that's the case then just ignore it ...


    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    Silence.
    A tumbleweed blows across in the middle distance.
    Nothing to see here, folks. Move along now.
    (One can hope, can't one...)
    Ha, ha ... OK. But you're not being censured or discouraged in any way at all (well not by me anyway!) ... so please, if you want to try explaining things again to fingerpickin, then go right ahead ... I don't know what he's talking about either! (that's a "euphemism" by the way ).

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking View Post
    I've had fingerpicking on my ignore list for quite a long while. The problem is that these sweeping debates come up with frightening regularity, making him impossible to practically ignore. Otherwise I just read everyone's responses to him and it makes it (even more) frustrating.
    If it makes any difference, I can say that I AM put off.
    .
    .
    etc.
    .
    .
    Yep, I understand. I know it can be pretty frustrating or annoying. I often don't "get" fingerpickins posts either. And yes, that is another euphemism lol ("get") .

    OK, so we know fingerpickin has strong opinions, particularly about his own abilities. He believes he is right, and he likes to say so. But he generally stays just the right side of any line on breaking forum rules. On the occasions that he might sound rude, he often replies afterwards to say he didn't mean any personal offence. And actually I've slowly come to realise he doesn't generally mean to offend. I think it's partly a communication problem in terms of the way fingerpickin writes ... that's not the whole problem of course, I agree, but I think it is part of the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    I don't believe you. you were going to agree with me again? lol. i was rude to you in a previous post, not sure if you read it, but it's playoff hockey here, my team had just lost and i'd had a few beers. so sorry, i just edited the statement not too long ago.
    Ah, well it's rarely a good idea to post on any forum after a few beers .

    Fingerpickin - do you check your messages before you post them? I mean do you read them back to yourself and edit them carefully, to make sure you are getting your ideas across clearly and not unintentionally giving offence in what you write? Do you check carefully for all that before posting?

    Obviously a check like that is not going to fix issues of you saying you are "certain" to be right about various things, or saying you are automatically a better musician than anyone else here (I doubt anyone would take much notice of claims like that anyway), and things like that are likely to annoy most readers (not just Bluesking here, but anyone anywhere) ... But, some of this may be just a misunderstanding due to the way you seem to post strong opinions without checking what you've written or what impression you are giving.

    Of course, it's up to you. And I'm not telling you it's any kind of law for you to check your words more carefully before posting them. It's just a friendly suggestion, OK? Because I think most of us here do make those checks and alterations before posting, and that's certainly worth doing if you want to avoid being badly misunderstood.

    2:cent's guys .

    Ian.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crossroads View Post
    No I don't object to threads like this at all, and I doubt if it's even my place to object anyway. I'm not sure you'll ever convince fingerpicking of anything he isn't all ready "certain" of, but that's another thing entirely .

    Really I'm just agreeing with Bluesking that, quite apart from "subjective" threads like this one, iBreathemusic needs to encourage more active new members with more new discussion focused on music and playing issues.

    The backstage area/"forum" (perhaps "forum" was entirely the wrong word), is just an area where the mods and admin. can post about technical issues etc. I don't think other members see that area on-screen ... it's an off-screen posting area used to sort out stuff before making any public changes.

    Just re. mods being stricter with the spam - I don't think that's actually the problem ... the problem is the way iBreathemusic has been implemented/installed means it's wide open to any spam attacks. It seems that for some reason we don't have the standard blocking features enabled (we've all complained about it to admin many times) ... so the forum is wide to anyone posting as much spam as they like whenever they wish (which is several times every day) ... the only option open to the mods is to react when the spam appears & then slowly and painstakingly delete each spam message individually one at a time .


    Ian.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crossroads View Post
    Guys - the following may just make matters worse (I was 50/50 about not posting it), but if that's the case then just ignore it ...




    Ha, ha ... OK. But you're not being censured or discouraged in any way at all (well not by me anyway!) ... so please, if you want to try explaining things again to fingerpickin, then go right ahead ... I don't know what he's talking about either! (that's a "euphemism" by the way ).



    Yep, I understand. I know it can be pretty frustrating or annoying. I often don't "get" fingerpickins posts either. And yes, that is another euphemism lol ("get") .

    OK, so we know fingerpickin has strong opinions, particularly about his own abilities. He believes he is right, and he likes to say so. But he generally stays just the right side of any line on breaking forum rules. On the occasions that he might sound rude, he often replies afterwards to say he didn't mean any personal offence. And actually I've slowly come to realise he doesn't generally mean to offend. I think it's partly a communication problem in terms of the way fingerpickin writes ... that's not the whole problem of course, I agree, but I think it is part of the problem.



    Ah, well it's rarely a good idea to post on any forum after a few beers .

    Fingerpickin - do you check your messages before you post them? I mean do you read them back to yourself and edit them carefully, to make sure you are getting your ideas across clearly and not unintentionally giving offence in what you write? Do you check carefully for all that before posting?

    Obviously a check like that is not going to fix issues of you saying you are "certain" to be right about various things, or saying you are automatically a better musician than anyone else here (I doubt anyone would take much notice of claims like that anyway), and things like that are likely to annoy most readers (not just Bluesking here, but anyone anywhere) ... But, some of this may be just a misunderstanding due to the way you seem to post strong opinions without checking what you've written or what impression you are giving.

    Of course, it's up to you. And I'm not telling you it's any kind of law for you to check your words more carefully before posting them. It's just a friendly suggestion, OK? Because I think most of us here do make those checks and alterations before posting, and that's certainly worth doing if you want to avoid being badly misunderstood.

    2:cent's guys .

    Ian.
    of course, how are you going to change my mind about something i am certain of? if i'm certain it's because i'm right. my mind begins fully opened and then when i am certain i am certain. JonR never said he was certain, true, but he acts like he is. at least certain that i'm not right. or certain that i am not certain, and you seem confident of that fact as well. but neither of you have any evidence of value to support these things.

    I never said anything about being the best musician here, i said something like that or alluding to that to JonR about JonR, absolutely. although i've never heard him play, but i've heard him speak about music, and about himself and music, and i know he believes that no individual is more musically talented than another, and that any person with the proper environmental influences can be as great as mozart. and someone who can think that way, can't be as good as a musician as i have become, at least the artistic way. sure some might be faster than me, can read music better, can play more tricky pieces that others have written. and true, what i am talking about my musicianship, although i'm not slow or very lacking in technique, is the subjective part, and sure, JonR might be faster than me know more chord shapes or whatever. but like i said, that's not music. not to me anyways. and i'm pretty sure i used words like probably when i spoke of those things. but i won't go back and check, partly because i don't care that much, and partly because already i've spent enough time saying this already. and no, i don't always fully re-read my posts for that exact reason.

    but whatever, you guys whichever of you holds this opinion, can live in the dream world that any one of you could become the greatest musician that has ever lived, or you would be now if only you had started younger or practiced harder. but seriously that's ridiculous and quite arrogant and i find unfortunate because you're missing part of the true beautiful value of great artists, it is not just that they started earlier or practiced harder, it is that they are somehow something special. but of course they did practice hard and did start early, but that's what's so super special, because starting early and practicing alot doesn't mean you will be great.

    i've seen children play beautiful pieces of piano even beyond my ability, on talk shows like leno and stuff, but these won't become great songwriters necessarily, or great improvisers, but ya, they'll always be able to read any piece of music and play any piece of music that has been written and do that quickly. sure. but that doesn't make them great musicians like mozart. in mozart's day all the nobility learned piano when they were young, they were the stereos of the day. they all worked hard, they all practiced hard. and yet mozart stands out. he stands out because he could do things other people couldn't. because he could write as he played billiards, which he was also incredibly good at. he wrote his music in order all instruments at once. and he wrote the most popular pieces, most other people starting off as young as mozart did and working as hard as mozart did, only ever got good enough to play what mozart wrote. and sure, every human has this ability, and yes startign at a young age is very helpful for this. but the creativity, is something else, it is something special. not all humans are the same. it's a shame for you you can't truly appreciate how precious someone like oscar peterson is. i suppose if you would have had a child or if you have one, that they would have been or will be the greatest musician to walk the earth.

    but whatever, you guys can think what you want. you can put 'certain' in quotations if you want as though to make fun of me, because obviously i cannot be certain, since you guys since more numerous in number and collectively clueless, then i must be and cannot be certain. like i would care. i am confident, i know i am right. and if you were more respectful and inquisitive, instead of knowing that you are not certain, and still being completely hard headedly attached to your position, then maybe i could have showed why i am certain. but i won't bother. so whatever, trust me or don't. but you are limited to belief no matter how you slice it. because of that, you think i must be too. fine. think that. but i am honest and don't throw words around like that lightly, so from my point of view you should trust me without question. but i understand that being trapped in belief must be difficult to make the right decision. it's all belief. you probably think i'm full of it for saying that too. that's ok. i don't care what you think. I am confident in what i'm saying, and the deeper you dig with me, the more you will find i have objections to your arguments and support for mine. had i not, i would not be certain.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    of course, how are you going to change my mind about something i am certain of? if i'm certain it's because i'm right. my mind begins fully opened and then when i am certain i am certain. JonR never said he was certain, true, but he acts like he is. at least certain that i'm not right. or certain that i am not certain, and you seem confident of that fact as well. but neither of you have any evidence of value to support these things.

    I never said anything about being the best musician here, i said something like that or alluding to that to JonR about JonR, absolutely. although i've never heard him play, but i've heard him speak about music, and about himself and music, and i know he believes that no individual is more musically talented than another, and that any person with the proper environmental influences can be as great as mozart. and someone who can think that way, can't be as good as a musician as i have become, at least the artistic way. sure some might be faster than me, can read music better, can play more tricky pieces that others have written. and true, what i am talking about my musicianship, although i'm not slow or very lacking in technique, is the subjective part, and sure, JonR might be faster than me know more chord shapes or whatever. but like i said, that's not music. not to me anyways. and i'm pretty sure i used words like probably when i spoke of those things. but i won't go back and check, partly because i don't care that much, and partly because already i've spent enough time saying this already. and no, i don't always fully re-read my posts for that exact reason.

    but whatever, you guys whichever of you holds this opinion, can live in the dream world that any one of you could become the greatest musician that has ever lived, or you would be now if only you had started younger or practiced harder. but seriously that's ridiculous and quite arrogant and i find unfortunate because you're missing part of the true beautiful value of great artists, it is not just that they started earlier or practiced harder, it is that they are somehow something special. but of course they did practice hard and did start early, but that's what's so super special, because starting early and practicing alot doesn't mean you will be great.

    i've seen children play beautiful pieces of piano even beyond my ability, on talk shows like leno and stuff, but these won't become great songwriters necessarily, or great improvisers, but ya, they'll always be able to read any piece of music and play any piece of music that has been written and do that quickly. sure. but that doesn't make them great musicians like mozart. in mozart's day all the nobility learned piano when they were young, they were the stereos of the day. they all worked hard, they all practiced hard. and yet mozart stands out. he stands out because he could do things other people couldn't. because he could write as he played billiards, which he was also incredibly good at. he wrote his music in order all instruments at once. and he wrote the most popular pieces, most other people starting off as young as mozart did and working as hard as mozart did, only ever got good enough to play what mozart wrote. and sure, every human has this ability, and yes startign at a young age is very helpful for this. but the creativity, is something else, it is something special. not all humans are the same. it's a shame for you you can't truly appreciate how precious someone like oscar peterson is. i suppose if you would have had a child or if you have one, that they would have been or will be the greatest musician to walk the earth.

    but whatever, you guys can think what you want. you can put 'certain' in quotations if you want as though to make fun of me, because obviously i cannot be certain, since you guys since more numerous in number and collectively clueless, then i must be and cannot be certain. like i would care. i am confident, i know i am right. and if you were more respectful and inquisitive, instead of knowing that you are not certain, and still being completely hard headedly attached to your position, then maybe i could have showed why i am certain. but i won't bother. so whatever, trust me or don't. but you are limited to belief no matter how you slice it. because of that, you think i must be too. fine. think that. but i am honest and don't throw words around like that lightly, so from my point of view you should trust me without question. but i understand that being trapped in belief must be difficult to make the right decision. it's all belief. you probably think i'm full of it for saying that too. that's ok. i don't care what you think. I am confident in what i'm saying, and the deeper you dig with me, the more you will find i have objections to your arguments and support for mine. had i not, i would not be certain.
    Why are you telling me all your opinions? I'm not arguing about it (I have better things to do).

    But one word of warning - be careful about replying to people saying things like this " since you guys since more numerous in number and collectively clueless ", because that definitely is overstepping the mark. Avoid saying anything deliberately offensive like that.

    Other than that - if you want to keep pressing your claims with JonR, and if he wants to continue that topic of discussion, then go right ahead.

    Ian.

  4. #49
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    To paraphrase Chris Morris, "We've had his posts analysed and they read like the raving of a drugged horse"

    Would any one of us entertain this kind of thing in the real world?
    "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"

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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    of course, how are you going to change my mind about something i am certain of? if i'm certain it's because i'm right. my mind begins fully opened and then when i am certain i am certain. JonR never said he was certain, true, but he acts like he is. at least certain that i'm not right. or certain that i am not certain, and you seem confident of that fact as well. but neither of you have any evidence of value to support these things.
    [etc]
    This is not a response to this post, but just to say I'm not continuing this "discussion" - because it is no longer a meaningful debate or argument, but a circular repetition of our individual viewpoints.
    I am not interested in your opinions or beliefs, or your assertions of what you believe to be facts. (I mean, you're welcome to state them of course. But I'm going to resist attempting - yet again - to blow holes in them.)

    Your supreme self-confidence does you credit, and is a valuable quality in any artistic career (I wish I had half of the arrogance you have). Good luck with your music.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking View Post
    To paraphrase Chris Morris, "We've had his posts analysed and they read like the raving of a drugged horse"

    Would any one of us entertain this kind of thing in the real world?
    Ah, Chris Morris, my hero!

    In the real world - ie in real-time conversation with other human beings - neither he nor I would ever get the chance to spout at such length without interrruption. That's the great appeal of the internet to nerds of all description.

    Let us all remember this cartoon, which ought to end any thread of this nature:

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    I wish I had half of the arrogance you have
    +1... oh, on second thought, I'm not sure ... maybe not

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by gersdal View Post
    +1... oh, on second thought, I'm not sure ... maybe not
    Maybe "arrogance" is the wrong word...
    I wouldn't envy an unpopular trait... but a little goes a long way, and some people are impressed by it.
    Self-belief is, of course, the enviable trait. That can easily spill over into arrogance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    Maybe "arrogance" is the wrong word...
    I wouldn't envy an unpopular trait... but a little goes a long way, and some people are impressed by it.
    Self-belief is, of course, the enviable trait. That can easily spill over into arrogance.
    Well not wishing to prolong the thread unnecessarily (because I do take the point of your cartoon), but - is self-confidence always a good thing in a musician? I mean, I really don't know?

    Obviously you need a decent level of confidence to perform live. But when you hear what many great musicians/artists say, they often talk about being consumed with self-doubt.

    And apart from self-confidence spilling over into arrogance (not referring to anyone here), I expect there's a danger of it at least spilling out into over-confidence, eg where well known performers seem to think their performance is brilliant, but where to me it often seems embarrassingly bad lol .

    Of course there are also plenty of great musicians who's playing seems "perfect", eg especially in the classical world ... though I'm not sure I could recognise when they played "wrong" notes or played phrases with incorrect/unintentional timing etc.

    Maybe I just can't hear lol ... or maybe, as fingerpickin would probably tell me, I have no musical/artistic ability (but I beg to differ! ... well I have to say that!).

    Ian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    This is not a response to this post, but just to say I'm not continuing this "discussion" - because it is no longer a meaningful debate or argument, but a circular repetition of our individual viewpoints.
    I am not interested in your opinions or beliefs, or your assertions of what you believe to be facts. (I mean, you're welcome to state them of course. But I'm going to resist attempting - yet again - to blow holes in them.)

    Your supreme self-confidence does you credit, and is a valuable quality in any artistic career (I wish I had half of the arrogance you have). Good luck with your music.
    ya you're right, i guess every child that learns music from a young age will become a great, and music theory books materialized out of nowhere. and in the renaissance every rich family would train their children to play music, and certain few ones arose beyond the rest, for no particular reason.

    you know you know very little of how the human mind works. and yet you are certain of what you're telling me. this is not possible. or if you are not certain of what you are telling me, then i cannot see how you are certain that i am not.

    crossroads, it is just as rude and insulting to say "certain" when speaking about me. you said this because you and others think this way, and you are playing power in numbers, but numbers don't matter, there is right and there is wrong. many can be wrong. if you want to be many that are wrong and group together and think that somehow makes you more correct, then go ahead, i don't care, i know what i'm talking about. you will just all be collectively clueless. that remark i think fit very well with yours. you're not clueless about everything, but about this without doubt. I am well accustomed to people having difficulty understanding concepts i find are simple. even well educated people like engineers and physicists. you can think i'm ranting and raving, ya sure.

    but you are not probing me. you are not testing me, nor the ideas i've put forward, you just assume that what i say must be impossible, perhaps because it is improbable, or i don't know why exactly you seem to know i'm talking out my ***. but you have not probed the subject. you have not dug. and if you do, the more you dig, the more you will find i am right. if you just want to talk hearsay, and say i must not be certain, based on absolutely nothing, and call what i'm saying rantings and therefore false, then go ahead, i don't care. i've already come to learn this. this philosophy is present in my music. i am in touch with my art and creativity and have learned music with this aspect in mind, and trained with this aspect in mind. i have not studied theory enough, i'll grant you that. but your learning will be stunted by your assumptions, as all learning is, and that's gonna suck for you. i don't care. remain stagnant.

  11. #56
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    Wrong Approach To Eartraining?

    Could I be missing the eartraining purpose if I were to use my tonal memory to get to the answers during melodic dictation?
    (For this task I am using EarMaster Pro 5)

    Right now, I am at lesson 5 "3 scaletones in major".

    I first get to hear a cadence of 4 chords of which the first and the last are the same, followed by 3 tones that needs to be identified.

    The cadence is probably there to help me get into the key they want me to be in and maybe I am, but it just does not feel that way. I just let it play and start to focus only on what really needs to be identified.

    Also have I left out all info that could show or hint me on what the beginning tones are.

    Does my experience not matter but the results only?

    Peace,
    Elcon

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elcon View Post
    Could I be missing the eartraining purpose if I were to use my tonal memory to get to the answers during melodic dictation?
    (For this task I am using EarMaster Pro 5)

    Right now, I am at lesson 5 "3 scaletones in major".

    I first get to hear a cadence of 4 chords of which the first and the last are the same, followed by 3 tones that needs to be identified.

    The cadence is probably there to help me get into the key they want me to be in and maybe I am, but it just does not feel that way. I just let it play and start to focus only on what really needs to be identified.

    Also have I left out all info that could show or hint me on what the beginning tones are.

    Does my experience not matter but the results only?

    Peace,
    Elcon
    What matters is to hear how the notes relate to the key, not what the pitches are in isolation.
    IOW, being able to hear (say) a C# (given perfect pitch) means nothing. It's more important to be able hear it as a major 3rd in A, or major 7th in D, or whatever.
    If you can hear both (pitch identity and key relationship), that's great. But music is all about relationships between notes, not the individual frequencies of those notes.
    That C# means something different in the key of D from what it means in A or E. Those differences are what matter.
    Eg, you need to be able to hear that C# in key of A is the same thing as F# in key of D. You need to recognise that "major 3rd" quality, not the "C#" or "F#" quality of single notes.

    A crucial musical skill is to be able to identify (say) a I-IV-V-I chord sequence, and then hear a single note as (say) the 6th of the key. It doesn't matter what the key or the note actually are. That's because our musical system is based on a tune being transposable: it doesn't become a different tune when played in a different key, because only its internal relationships matter, not its absolute pitch.
    In this sense, A-D-E-A is the same thing as C-F-G-C, or F-Bb-C-F. (Of course, if one 4-chord set is played after the other you hear the differences; but mainly you need to hear that each 4-chord set is the same sequence.)

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    This is the free online ear trainer I've used.

    http://www.miles.be/fet.html

    Unlike most ear trainers that play two random notes and asks you to determine the interval this one establishes a key by playing a cadence. Then it plays a note and you have to guess what note it is. I've gotten good results from this method. When I used the other trainers that ask you to determine intervals between two notes it didn't really carry over to how I heard music. Now when I hear a song it's easier for me to hear the tonic and the other intervals in realation to the tonic. Still something I'm working on, but it's getting better.

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    Hearing the RP quality

    you need to be able to hear that C# in key of A is the same thing as F# in key of D. You need to recognise that "major 3rd" quality, not the "C#" or "F#" quality of single notes.
    You are thus saying that understanding is not enough, you need to hear it aswell. That seems hard to do, but doable nevertheless.

    I also own Bruce Arnold's "One Note Advanced" material as well as his "Fanatic's Guide to Eartraining and Sightsinging" and I too got through all his exercises using my tonal memory. Going through them I do notice difficulties on some points and I do improve with repetition, but I don't always hear the RP quality as I am supposed to.

    I guess I could fix this with the "Fanatic's Guide", but I wonder how I should listen differently to the "One Note" exercises. You are saying I should hear the tones in relationship to the cadence. Maybe I am already, I really don't know.

    If there is a way to test this, I would love to know about it.

    Peace,
    Elcon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elcon View Post
    You are thus saying that understanding is not enough, you need to hear it aswell. That seems hard to do, but doable nevertheless.

    I also own Bruce Arnold's "One Note Advanced" material as well as his "Fanatic's Guide to Eartraining and Sightsinging" and I too got through all his exercises using my tonal memory. Going through them I do notice difficulties on some points and I do improve with repetition, but I don't always hear the RP quality as I am supposed to.

    I guess I could fix this with the "Fanatic's Guide", but I wonder how I should listen differently to the "One Note" exercises. You are saying I should hear the tones in relationship to the cadence. Maybe I am already, I really don't know.

    If there is a way to test this, I would love to know about it.

    Peace,
    Elcon
    IMO you need to work with what you've got (EarMaster). I don't know that software, but - "a cadence of 4 chords of which the first and the last are the same, followed by 3 tones that needs to be identified" - is all about identifying a note relative to the key.

    IOW, if it plays C-F-G-C (in chords), then an E note, you need to be able to hear that as the 3rd of the key (major 3rd above the tonic, C). You don't need to be able to identify it as an "E" (or the chords as C-F-G-C), just hear its position relative to the key.

    (The software jsepguitar recommended above might also be worth trying - looks like it does the same thing, but different viewpoints or designs are always worth looking at.)

    I suggest you try singing as the chords play - try and sing the chord roots, in particular the tonic note: root of 1st and last chord, and also present in the 2nd chord (if it's a IV). Then when you hear the single note(s), try and sing that.
    It's all about internalising these sounds, getting a feel for the distance between notes.
    (If you really can't get your voice to work, try finding the notes on your instrument. It's not exactly cheating - you still have to find the notes by ear.)

    Also try singing along with recordings. It doesn't have to be the vocal, you could try humming any note that sounds like it fits the chords. See if you can find the tonic by singing along: that's the note that "sounds like home".
    You don't need to think about identifying intervals here, it's just about listening and copying, a basic musical skill. It should improve your ear generally, so you can identify intervals better.
    (Again, do this with an instrument if you really can't sing at all.)

    Remember the purpose of any ear training exercise is not just to do the exercises better!: it's to become a better musician, which means being able to hear what's going on in a piece of music, as well as you can. You become an analytical listener. How you sort it out in your head, and characterise the various sounds, is largely up to you - although the standard music theory jargon is a tried-and-tested system, and is crucial for communicating with other musicians.

    So - as well as (or even instead of) ear training software - try transcribing tunes. Always work with real music as much as you can.
    Last edited by JonR; 07-06-2010 at 11:47 AM.

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