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View Poll Results: Which song do we do next?

Voters
7. This poll is closed
  • "Georgia on my Mind"

    5 71.43%
  • "Pride and Joy" - Stevie Ray Vaughan

    1 14.29%
  • "Little Wing" - Monte Montgomery version

    0 0%
  • "Black Orpheus" - Luiz Bonfa

    2 28.57%
  • "Green Flower Street" - Donald Fagan/Steely Dan

    1 14.29%
  • "And your bird can sing" - The Beatles

    1 14.29%
  • "Tokyo Dream" - Allan Holdsworth.

    0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: iJam voting

  1. #16
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    wait, i just listened to it again, and you're right it's not Cmaj7 i think maybe it's D F G C. i'm quite confident the high C is right, but something of that still sounds wrong. i'll need to look at it again though.
    Yes, listen again. It's E7.
    (I know very well what transcribe can and can't do, btw... I know when to take it with a pinch of salt.)

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    Yes, listen again. It's E7.
    (I know very well what transcribe can and can't do, btw... I know when to take it with a pinch of salt.)
    I guess you'd need to, but idk, it's limitations are why i can't bother with it. it's just gonna tell you some guesses you'd have to go and figure out anyways. i find it's just easier and faster to ear it out yourself the first time.

    but maybe it's pretty good just for finding the main chords of a progression rather than literal transcriptions note for note.


    for the chord i'm referring to though, It's definitely not E7. I'm pretty sure it's C# aug5 maj7. maybe we're talkign about something different. alot of the time ray is just playing steady chords until this moment, he throws out a quick C# note and then A note, something like 16ths apart and then throws out this chord. these might be played on triplets. i'm not sure exactly, but the tempo is quickish.

    actually i'll just post that part quickly so you know what i mean.
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    Last edited by fingerpikingood; 02-19-2010 at 01:23 AM.

  3. #18
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    here actually while i was at it i figured i could show you for this part what both options sound like over the tune with a piano, i forget if you have a piano at home or not.

    just looped that section a few times first pass is C# m5maj7 second is E7, goes back and forth a bit.

    I was almost right before with D F G C i didn't think it sounded exactly right, it was the D that should have been a C# so C# F G C in that order is what he played in that part.
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    Last edited by fingerpikingood; 02-19-2010 at 01:15 AM.

  4. #19
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    no wait lol. i got confused. the cmaj part wasn't the Cmaj part iwas thinking about. well, i corrected the A dm7 part anyways. i'll see what's this C maj7 part again.

  5. #20
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    ya i think you're right for that part it's E7, with Ab being the lowest note and E the highest one. and then i think after the C#m5maj7 it's E7 again.

    I reviewed some other stuff. it's really tough to hear properly though particularly this recording. some parts it's not so bad, but piano easily gets muffled out by other instruments in many parts, and this piano recording is not the crispest cleanest piano sound either.

    but nayways upon review, i think this might be closer. actually i'll stick with that last Bm, but the Bbaug I had at the end must have been something i added completely cause that's not in there. i like it though. it sounds like it ought to be there i find. but anyways, i think this is pretty close.

    |G(maj7) - - - |B7 - - - |Em7 - G7/D - |C - C#dim7 - |
    |G/D - E7 - |A7 - C/D - |Bm - E7 |A - C#m5maj7 - Bm|

  6. #21
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    ya i think you're right for that part it's E7, with Ab being the lowest note and E the highest one. and then i think after the C#m5maj7 it's E7 again.

    I reviewed some other stuff. it's really tough to hear properly though particularly this recording. some parts it's not so bad, but piano easily gets muffled out by other instruments in many parts, and this piano recording is not the crispest cleanest piano sound either.

    but nayways upon review, i think this might be closer. actually i'll stick with that last Bm, but the Bbaug I had at the end must have been something i added completely cause that's not in there. i like it though. it sounds like it ought to be there i find. but anyways, i think this is pretty close.

    |G(maj7) - - - |B7 - - - |Em7 - G7/D - |C - C#dim7 - |
    |G/D - E7 - |A7 - C/D - |Bm - E7 |A - C#m5maj7 - Bm|
    OK, we're approaching convergence.

    But - "C#m5maj7"?? I take it you mean the notes C#-G#-C. Which beat of the bar do you hear that on?

    And you still need to take account of the bass, which is A on beats 1 and 2 and D on 3 and 4. The piano may well be playing rootless voicings - amounting in isolation to different chords - but that doesn't mean we transcribe the chords that way.
    Eg, if the piano was to play an Em chord but the bass played C, then the correct chord name woud be Cmaj7, not Em. (The pianist would be quite conscious that Cmaj7 was the intended chord, he just chooses to leave the root to the bass.)

    The D bass at the end of the bar, therefore, makes your Bm a D6 chord. (RC would not be thinking "Bm", he would be thinking "rootless D6".) Personally I think there's a C in the chord - which would make it D13 - but I'm not sure I hear a B.
    The point is, in functional analysis terms (which is the idea of this thread), it's a dominant chord of some kind - and these last 2 bars are a very simple standard turnaround. They may have some interesting extensions or alterations here and there, but to ignore the fact of this backcycle of 5ths (B-E-A-D-|G) is to not see the wood for the trees.

  7. #22
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gersdal View Post
    I tried to add the function of the chords. I'm not sure about this, but please have a look... and comments are welcome.

    There's a few I'm not sure about, and I also added a P above some of the chords that I see as passing chords continuing the function of the last chord...
    Looks good to me.
    I'm not sure either about the function of "passing chords" like the C#dim7 (or even if that's the best term for that chord).

    I also agree about the problems presented by the bridge.
    The C7 could be a blues bVI of Em - which could be seen as a tritone sub for V/V (F#7, V of B7). But that's maybe a bit of a stretch here!
    C7 is also an occasional sub for Am7 in an E minor blues.
    The A7 could be seen as V/V of G major (making the previous Em7 ii/V). Or a dorian IV of course.
    Another angle might be to see these whole 4 bars as "CESH" (contrapuntal elaboration of static harmony) - IOW, an Em chord the whole way, just alternating with various embellishments, ways of harmonising the notes E and G (which every one of those chords contains). As if he (Hoagy Carmichael) starts each bar with Em, then sees what second chord he can use that still contains the root and 3rd: Am7, C7, A7 - they all work!

    The C#7 is simply V of the following F#7. Technically (in key of either Em or G) it maybe ought to be a C#m7b5. But what we get from all those dom7s (C#7-F#7-B7-E7-A7-D7 - roots going right through the D major scale!) is the beautifully apt descending guide tones. Apt because of the lyrics "the road leads back to you" - right back to our home key of G major, of course. (Hey, "G for Georgia" too! )

  8. #23
    JazzNerd gersdal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    Looks good to me.
    I'm not sure either about the function of "passing chords" like the C#dim7 (or even if that's the best term for that chord).

    I also agree about the problems presented by the bridge.
    The C7 could be a blues bVI of Em - which could be seen as a tritone sub for V/V (F#7, V of B7). But that's maybe a bit of a stretch here!
    C7 is also an occasional sub for Am7 in an E minor blues.
    The A7 could be seen as V/V of G major (making the previous Em7 ii/V). Or a dorian IV of course.
    Another angle might be to see these whole 4 bars as "CESH" (contrapuntal elaboration of static harmony) - IOW, an Em chord the whole way, just alternating with various embellishments, ways of harmonising the notes E and G (which every one of those chords contains). As if he (Hoagy Carmichael) starts each bar with Em, then sees what second chord he can use that still contains the root and 3rd: Am7, C7, A7 - they all work!

    The C#7 is simply V of the following F#7. Technically (in key of either Em or G) it maybe ought to be a C#m7b5. But what we get from all those dom7s (C#7-F#7-B7-E7-A7-D7 - roots going right through the D major scale!) is the beautifully apt descending guide tones. Apt because of the lyrics "the road leads back to you" - right back to our home key of G major, of course. (Hey, "G for Georgia" too! )
    Thanks for your comments. I'm looking forward to studying them in more detail.

  9. #24
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gersdal View Post
    Thanks for your comments. I'm looking forward to studying them in more detail.
    There was a short thread about this song on allaboutjazz -
    http://forums.allaboutjazz.com/showthread.php?t=28203
    - it's only really focussing on one chord, but it might have some interesting pointers. (They're discussing it in key of E, btw.)

    Very short analysis of the whole song here (in original key of F):
    http://www.jazzstandards.com/composi...iaonmymind.htm

    The one point of interest to me is the F#7 in the original changes, between G and Am. ("old sweet song keeps.." (Ray Charles' arrangement uses a more "ordinary" E7 here.)
    It sounds so right, and moves so nicely to Am - but how do you explain an F#7-Am change?

    My thought was to substitute a dim7 based on the 3rd of F#7: A#dim7 (common sub for a dom7). The main F# melody note is not part of that chord, but is a common melodic addition to a dim7.
    It then becomes a familiar vamp sequence from jazz of that era:
    G-Bbdim7-Am7-D7 - I-biiio7-ii-V.
    Still not sure how to interpret that, but IMO A#dim7 could be standing for A7, V of D7, with Am7 the interposed ii chord.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    OK, we're approaching convergence.

    But - "C#m5maj7"?? I take it you mean the notes C#-G#-C. Which beat of the bar do you hear that on?

    And you still need to take account of the bass, which is A on beats 1 and 2 and D on 3 and 4. The piano may well be playing rootless voicings - amounting in isolation to different chords - but that doesn't mean we transcribe the chords that way.
    Eg, if the piano was to play an Em chord but the bass played C, then the correct chord name woud be Cmaj7, not Em. (The pianist would be quite conscious that Cmaj7 was the intended chord, he just chooses to leave the root to the bass.)

    The D bass at the end of the bar, therefore, makes your Bm a D6 chord. (RC would not be thinking "Bm", he would be thinking "rootless D6".) Personally I think there's a C in the chord - which would make it D13 - but I'm not sure I hear a B.
    The point is, in functional analysis terms (which is the idea of this thread), it's a dominant chord of some kind - and these last 2 bars are a very simple standard turnaround. They may have some interesting extensions or alterations here and there, but to ignore the fact of this backcycle of 5ths (B-E-A-D-|G) is to not see the wood for the trees.
    this is the chord of the loop i recorded, the notes would be C# F A D if i am not mistaken, just saying that from memory but i think i posted the notes before in another post and those ones are for sure the ones i meant for that chord name.

    I know what you mean, about the bass, but that's why i was saying, what i was writing was the piano chords. sure they may be rootless, my intention was not to write a chord progression designed as a framework for musicians to play. but to see what ray himself was doing. but maybe i should have not done that, or done it as a separate thing, and look over your progression you did as what you were doing, since you weren't looking at just piano. then we could have compared the two which probably would have been better. so, maybe i should just forget doing that. at least for now, and stick to more general chords that seem to be the framework of the tune.

    i'd like to get general chord structure for figuring the progression in roman numerals as well anyways.

    I think this tune is very similar in chord progression to hymn to freedom by oscar peterson, in the main part at least.

    oops checked other post C# F G C. and that might be right, but i think i must have posted the wrong letter before and actually it is C# F A C. i remember for sure that the high C was right, and i remember thinking it was just like Dm7 but with flat root, which i think must be C# F A C. it's in the recording at any rate. for sure what i played in it was right. i don't think FGC could be right though because F and G on piano are right next to each other, and i'm 98% sure there was one white key spaced between every note excluding the C#.
    Last edited by fingerpikingood; 02-20-2010 at 04:47 AM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    A1
    |G(maj7) - - - |B7 - - - |Em7 - G7/D - |C - C#dim7 - |
    |G/D - E9 - |A7 - D7 - |B7 - E7 - |A7 - D7 - |

    |
    The transcript I have for this tune uses some different, (variations of) the chords listed above, transposed to G:

    |G---|B7---|Em7-Em7/D|A7/C#-Cm6|
    |Bm7-E7| .....the differences listed so far can be explained as variations of the chords Jon listed, (bar 4 may actually be reversing the order ??)
    Bar 6 continues the series of ii7-V7 and I'm not sure how to justify that change of chord quality, (changing the 1st dominant chord to a ii7)

    The discussion linked @ jazzstandards would take this a step further:
    Begining with 3rd messure
    .........|Em7-Cm/Eb|G/D-F#7/C#|C......, if I've understood that discussion correctly.

    I can see that the first variation could fit the melody and may not change a functional analysis, the second variation (from jazzstandards) may be enough to over power my tiny brain. Is this pretty typical,or even basic re-harmonization ?

    I think I'm in over my head
    -best,
    Mike

  12. #27
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjo View Post
    The transcript I have for this tune uses some different, (variations of) the chords listed above, transposed to G:

    |G---|B7---|Em7-Em7/D|A7/C#-Cm6|
    |Bm7-E7| .....the differences listed so far can be explained as variations of the chords Jon listed, (bar 4 may actually be reversing the order ??)
    Bar 6 continues the series of ii7-V7 and I'm not sure how to justify that change of chord quality, (changing the 1st dominant chord to a ii7)
    The melody notes are the best guide here, as all the reharmonisations will be honouring the melody in some way.
    In bar 3, the melody notes are B-E-B, with the E falling on the first beat of the G7/D, making it a G13 chord. But obviously an Em7/D is a perfectly good choice too (and a much simpler one).
    Likewise, the main melody note in bar 4 is an A, which of course explains the A7/C# perfectly, as well as the Cm6 (and suggests the C in the Ray Charles version should be a C6).

    I have another version which has bar 4 as Am-Cm.

    In fact, I really like your one, because of that descending bass: E-D-C#-C down to Bm7.

    As mentioned above, the original chord in the second half of bar 5 was F#7, not E9. This is indeed a bizarre choice on the face of it. Yes it aligns with the melody (notes F#-E there), but it's an odd transition chord between Gmaj7 and Am7 (or C).
    However, your mention of Bm7 in the first half of that bar makes more sense of it. Bm7 fits the melody (B-D) just as well as Gmaj7, and F#7 can then be seen as the V of Bm.
    Additionally, in the light of that descending bass, we can travel on down from the root of Bm via A# under the F#7 to the root of Am. Neat!

    Em - Em7/D (or G13/D) - A7/C# - Cm6 - Bm7 - F#7/A# - Am7...

    (But no it couldn't go on down to Ab - as a tritone sub for the following D7 - because the melody is B-A.)

    IOW, you can (maybe) sum up the rules of jazz chord sequences as follows:

    1. Harmonise the melody, somehow. (Strong notes don't have to be chord tones, they could be extensions. But the chords must support the melody, not distract or detract from it, and certainly not make it sound like wrong notes.)
    2. Create voice-leading from one chord to the next (and descending lines, chromatic or diatonic, are generally cool).
    3. Obey conventional cycle of 5ths sequence rules, or use functional subs (tritone subs, dim7 subs, iii-for-I type subs, etc).

    Rule #3 is the least important, not the most. And of course any subs can't break rule #1.

    Some way down below those 3 would be expanding the chords with more interesting extensions (beyond the standard 7th forms). If this can be done without breaking the above rules, fine. But that's rare.

  13. #28
    JazzNerd gersdal's Avatar
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    To the mods: Could this thread be renamed "Georgia chord progression and analysis" or something like it?

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