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Thread: iJam - Cry Me A River

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjo View Post
    Is it fair to say the composer chose the modulation between G Maj. and B minor is because of the close relationship, one note difference ? ...even though melodic minor would be three notes different......
    -Is there any more to be said about that ?

    -I hope you'll excuse my special needs / short bus thinking.....

    Thanks!
    i know this migoht not be incredibly helpful in a theoretical kind of way really, so sorry in advance, but just to be precise, no, he didn't choose that modulation because there is one note difference.

    he chose that modulation because he thought it sounded good. it's always that way with theory. musicians never choose to play things because of the theory.

    they use the theory to know their way around and that will help them get the sounds they want. the fact that just one note is different is a good observation to make though. you could also look at it as simple G maj. or B minor with one accidental, which may or may not be due to the fact that a chord being played during one part of the tune is out of one of those scales, and uses one different note. i'm not sure about this case though, because i haven't really gotten into this tune. but just thought i'd mention that. theory is not a reason for doing things. it is just names of things. it's important to name them and recognize them, and associate their names with the sounds they make, and observe how they interact with each other. but their relationships are never why they should be played. it's always just the sound they make.

    but ya, both of those scales have alot of notes similar which would explain in part why he likes the sound of both of them. but then the question is, why exactly does he sometimes switch in and out one note. why does he like that sound?

    so i think the best answer to your question is to find those instances where that one note is different. and see what's the background at that time. and see how that note harmonizes when he uses it, or if it is a note in passing, if it is harmonious or dissonant. what kind of mood or feeling it evokes in you, and how at those times it would sound differently had he not made the switch.

    i'm not sure exactly what parts you're talking about though, so i can't help you there.

  2. #17
    JazzNerd gersdal's Avatar
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    Summing up the harmonic analysis so far

    Harmony (chords and chord sequences).
    Changes
    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    Here's the basic changes (in Ella Fitzgerald's key, but without Joe Pass's embellishments):
    A1
    ||Fm(add9) - Db/F - |Fm6 - Fm7 - |Bbm7 - Eb7 - |Ab - C7 - |
    |Cm7b5 - F7 - |Bb9 - - - |Bbm7 - Eb7sus4 - |Ab - C7 - ||

    A2
    ||Fm(add9) - Db/F - |Fm6 - Fm7 - |Bbm7 - Eb7 - |Ab - Gm7 C7 |
    |Cm7 - F7 - |Bb9 - - - |Bbm7 - Eb7sus4 - |Ab - G7b9 - ||

    B
    |Cm(6) - - - |Dm7b5 - G7b9 - |Cm(6) - - - |Dm7b5 - G7 - |
    |Cm(6) - - - |Dm7b5 - G7b9 - |C69 - - - |Gm7 - C7 - |

    repeat A1.
    Key (major and minor)
    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    This is key of Ab major, but with a strong hint of the relative minor (Fm), and a definite modulation to C minor in the bridge.
    Chord structure. (Intervals, extensions.)
    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    The opening 2 bars on Fm feature what is sometimes known as CESH - "contrapuntal elaboration of static harmony". In this case, it's a chromatic rising line from the 5th of the chord up to the b7. (The second chord could be written as Fm(#5), or Fmb6.) This is a distinctive element of this song, as most songs with lengthy sections on a minor chord use a descending line (root-maj7-7-6), such as My Funny Valentine.
    (The "add9" btw is representing that long first melody note. Adding the 9th to a minor chord is a great way of signalling melancholy or poignancy. This songwriter knew what he was doing...)
    Chord function
    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    Here's a functional analysis of the chords (the way I see them - other interpretations are possible, particularly seeing the Fm as a tonic in that key):
    A section - key Ab major:
    ||vi - - - |- - - -|ii - V - |I - V/vi - |
    |ii/ii - V/ii - |V/V - - - |ii - V - |I - V/vi - ||
    Notice that we get the V of Fm at the end of the 1st line, but it doesn't lead back to Fm, but on to Cm7b5, the "supertonic of the supertonic" (hehe, there's a phrase to roll off the tongue - call it ii/ii "two of two" if you prefer ). In fact you could ignore the Cm7b5 as an embellishment of the following F7, with F7 being the true target of the previous C7.
    However, instead of the ii chord (Bbm in this key) that the previous bar (bar 5) leads us to expect, we get a full bar on Bb9 (V/V, secondary dominant of the dominant). This chord has a nice strong bluesy sound, underlining the title phrase.
    Essentially, tho, what we have is a classic circle-of-5ths root progression, twice: F-Bb-Eb-Ab-(C)-|F-Bb-Eb-Ab - just with some variations in chord type, and the chords held for different lengths of time.
    The second A section finishes with another secondary dominant (V/iii), leading us into the key of C minor (not C phrygian, which would be the diatonic mode on that step).
    Bridge:
    We get a i-ii-V in this key three times, before the Cm becomes C major (a "picardy third", minor tonic turning major), which in turn becomes a dominant. Gm7-C7 suggests a ii-V in F major, but leads us back to F minor.
    So there's kind of a neat switch here. Bars 6-7 of the bridge are a minor key ii-V leading to a major I; bar 8 of the bridge is a major key ii-V leading to a minor I.
    (The idea that Fm is the tonic to begin with is countered by that rising line, which seems (IMO) to inevitably pull towards the following Bbm7, as the line aims at an Fm7. If this chord was played with a descending 1-maj7-b7-6 line, it might sound more like the key chord.)
    I tried to sum this functional analysis into my sheet for comping the Cry me a river.

    Secondary dominants and use of substitutions
    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    In performance, most of those secondary dominants will be preceded by secondary supertonics. (IOW, V7 chords will become ii7-V7s.) Eg the C7 in bar 4 and 8 would be preceded by Gm7b5, and the G7b9 before the bridge would have a Dm7b5 before it (as in the bridge itself).
    Also, the Cm in the bridge often has an A bass in the 2nd half of the bar, making it technically Am7b5 at that point. (The melody is C melodic minor here, so we potentially get that rare beast, a "locrian natural 2" chord: Am9b5. Or Cm(maj7/A.)

    (I haven't transcribed Joe Pass's chords, but that would be an interesting exercise... The Barney Kessel transcription gersdal posted is probably the most famous version, because of its use in the film "The Girl Can't Help It", and has that nice chromatic intro.)
    As I have indicated in my file you could substitute in lots of stuff especially for dominant chords in order to make the voicings of the chords flow. E.g. the first V chord has an added #5 added in order to smoothly move to the I chord that is following. The V/vi following this I chord is partly substituted by the ii/vi (a lot of these substitutions). In measure 7 there’s a tritone substitution of the ii chord resulting in nice chromatic line (in essence the ii is first substituted by a II, and then the II is substituted by the triton bV7). In the break I normally play two different substitutions for the im6 chords, a viŲ7 and a III13(#11). All very cool in my opinion .
    Last edited by gersdal; 01-25-2010 at 08:29 AM.

  3. #18
    JazzNerd gersdal's Avatar
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    Improvisation

    There no improvisation part in the Ella and Joe version of Cry me a river. Hence, it is more interesting to discuss what could have been played.

    The first question could be: “Can I use one scale for the whole tune?”.

    I usually find this to be a bad approach, but it is probably a good approach for a beginner. First, you would at least need two different scales as the tonality of the tune changes. As JonR indicated in his analysis of the key of this tune, it changes from Ab major to C minor (for the Ella and Joe version). That would be Eb major and G minor in my sheet for the same tune. I also indicated a C minor for a few bars (I’m sure I was inspired by JonR to indicate that). So could I play Eb major, G minor (dorian as Gm6 is an important chord) and C minor as indicated?

    First, the chromatic line (raising the 5th up to a b7 for the vi chord) would give a challenge at the vim6. Next, it could be a problem when we get into the V/vi, ii/ii, V/ii and V/V chord progression. All in all, I would say there is a need for lots of scales through the tune.

    I’ve indicated these scale choices in this link.

    If you want to play those well rehearsed pentatonic stuff, the tune can be played with all pentatonic scales also. Here's a suggestion for scale choices.

    Another approach is to use the guide tones of the melody (reduced melody) or the guide tones of the chords. I’ve indicated both in this sheet.

    I'd appreciate comments to these contributions
    Last edited by gersdal; 01-25-2010 at 08:27 AM. Reason: Added the pentatonic suggestion

  4. #19
    JazzNerd gersdal's Avatar
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    Rhythm

    Tempo, meter and time signature
    The bpm is about 65 in Ella and Joe’s recording. The time signature is 4/4.

    Rhythmic feel
    There’s a clear swing feel to the tune. The singing is very laid-back, as always with Ella. Joe’s playing is also laid-back, but he’s keeping the pulse by finger picking close to all beats in the bar.

  5. #20
    Registered User bluesking's Avatar
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    I've tried to solo over the simplified chords JonR posted earlier. At the moment I am just pratting around on the two obvious pentatonic scales and the results sound like the audio equivallent of a child's crayon picture. Once I actually have more time I will probably post some recordings.

    I've mainly tried to map out the guide tones for the tune to help me improve my solo but this is by no means complete.

    Its quite frustrating for my blues/rock brain!
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking View Post
    I've tried to solo over the simplified chords JonR posted earlier. At the moment I am just pratting around on the two obvious pentatonic scales and the results sound like the audio equivallent of a child's crayon picture. Once I actually have more time I will probably post some recordings.

    I've mainly tried to map out the guide tones for the tune to help me improve my solo but this is by no means complete.

    Its quite frustrating for my blues/rock brain!
    if ever you get to a stage, where you have only the chords for the tune in either midi, or audio format, i'd be interested in fiddling with it, if you'd be kind enough to post it. anything i post right now though will only be piano.

    in the Ab parts i think it is you can get real bluesy, but i'm willing to bet the main things that are messing you up are the key changes. also another thing to listen to, in jazz they often do this, is they'll slide down a semi tone on one of their notes in their chords. this can be tricky for soloing over, so it's fairly key to listen for that, and recognize when they'll do it, it's a fairly common thing in jazz, and when they do it, is fairly predictable also, in that jazz kind of way.

    that's actually a pretty cool tune, i checked it out in this link

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XggjVo3j-o

    i find for some parts it's got a real james bond intro kind of feel, and i like the chromatic chord moving down a semi-tone and another part. too it's got a reall cool kind of soul/funk feel but mellow, it's kind of cool in this tune i find.

  7. #22
    JazzNerd gersdal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    if ever you get to a stage, where you have only the chords for the tune in either midi, or audio format, i'd be interested in fiddling with it, if you'd be kind enough to post it. anything i post right now though will only be piano.
    I uploaded a backing track for ya...

    Backing track

    I tried to give it a slow blues feel. Don't know if that was a good idea...

    Right click and choose "save linked content as" if you want it on your computer.

    there's obviously something wrong with the uploading of files here at IBM at the moment. The only thing that seems to work is linking the files to someplace else...
    Last edited by gersdal; 01-24-2010 at 10:52 PM.

  8. #23
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    ya, it's kind of been a while tha the linking hasn't been working. i first noticed quite a while ago at any rate.

    ya, the blues is cool, it seems slower than the youtube clip i linked. what's cool about getting the song simple form like this is you really see how much you get from the artist(s) performing the song.

    i think this will help me learn the chords too. thanks man.

    actually i just thought of something else, i don't know if it's easy to do with that program you used but would it be possible to submit also the chords just as you programmed into that backing track?

    thanks again man.

  9. #24
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    it doesn't seem to to me to be exactly the same as the roman progression JonR posted earlier. i could be wrong though, but it sounds different to me. i'll fiddle some more.

    what i noticed for sure is that you start in Cm then it does the james bond thing, which i believe is Cm6 and then a Cm#6 or whatever the proper name for that would be. and then Fm and them Gm or Gm7.

    after that, i'm not sure yet. so for sure it's not in the same key as the original score we have here. or as the ones that start Fm or as the Ella link i posted from youtube that starts off with Abm.

    confusing. that's why the roman numerals are so key i guess.


    Bluesking, if you dl this backing track you'll find the C pentatonic works great most of the time, (C pent and Cm are almost the same anyways) and also BbMaj, or whatever the mode it would be in this case, which i have a feeling is just Gm.
    Last edited by fingerpikingood; 01-25-2010 at 01:58 AM.

  10. #25
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    ok, here's my first attempt, i looped the backing track 3 times. I mess up sometimes, sometimes in notes and sometimes in timing. and it's only right hand, because i can't cope with not knowing the chords and playing both hands, i figured the ones i posted out, but then i kind of gave up and just started playing. i supd up the track a little too, reaper style. upon hearing it though, it sounds different rendered to mp3, a little heavy on the bass and piano not quite loud enough, but whatever.

    here's the link if anyone is interested.

    http://www.zshare.net/audio/7165174223673d9b/

    in general, i did mostly arpeggios, chord voicings, Gm scale, and C pentatonic, with some chromatic in there a little too, although i don't think i did any chromatic runs in this recording, but those work well with these sorts of tunes. for some reason i don't use those much on guitar though. but on piano they're more awesome somehow, maybe they're just easier to play on piano too.

    hopefully the next one i post will be a good improvement.
    Last edited by fingerpikingood; 01-25-2010 at 03:17 AM.

  11. #26
    JazzNerd gersdal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    i think this will help me learn the chords too. thanks man.
    You're welcome. Thanks for your response.

    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    actually i just thought of something else, i don't know if it's easy to do with that program you used but would it be possible to submit also the chords just as you programmed into that backing track?
    I must have posted that close to 10 times in this thread. Check any link to pdf file in my posts.

    I've now coloured links blue to stand out of the text.

    Since nobody is commenting on any of the sheets I've posted, can I take it that it's crap? I don't want to go on posting crap...
    Last edited by gersdal; 01-25-2010 at 09:27 AM.

  12. #27
    Registered User bluesking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gersdal View Post
    Since nobody is commenting on any of the sheets I've posted, can I take it that it's crap? I don't want to go on posting crap...
    I doubt very much that it is crap. My lack of response is based on the fact that I had very limited time to look at it and therefore decided to look at the "simplified" chords JonR posted (the ones which start in the key of Cminor).

    Once I have some chance to spend more time on it I was hoping to look at your more elaborate chords. So thanks for giving me that opportunity!
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  13. #28
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    for me i hadn't checked them because they were labelled as melody and scale choices. so i didn't think of it. If they had been labelled as Chord structure as seen in backing track, or lead sheet as seen in backing track i would have downloaded them.

    so it has nothing to do with crap or not for me, I just didn't get to the point yet where i wanted to look up that information.

    but will now, thanks.

    edit: that's them?! by crikey looks more complicated than it sounds.

    ... actually i think i know why, when i look at the chords it's like a whole plethora of chords, when really alot of those are the same basic chord where only one note changes, which is more of a bummer in guitar because of the way your fingers need to be placed that often means you need to reposition all your fingers, but in piano, you only need to move one finger all the time.

    still, this is going to be rough i think. I wish i could give it a go right now.
    Last edited by fingerpikingood; 01-25-2010 at 12:45 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking View Post
    I've tried to solo over the simplified chords JonR posted earlier. At the moment I am just pratting around on the two obvious pentatonic scales and the results sound like the audio equivallent of a child's crayon picture. Once I actually have more time I will probably post some recordings.

    I've mainly tried to map out the guide tones for the tune to help me improve my solo but this is by no means complete.

    Its quite frustrating for my blues/rock brain!
    Try forgetting scales and thinking in chord tones.
    Start a phrase on a chord tone and end it on a chord tone (either in the same chord, the next one, or any one down the line);
    For passing notes, use notes in the next chord. (Sometimes the previous chord is also a good source.)
    Chromatic passing notes (ie, not in any nearby chord) can also work, for a bit of extra juice. (Your ear will tell you if they are good or bad.)

    You need no scale knowledge (or note knowledge) for this strategy, and it always works. (It always sounds musical and logical, tho how good it sounds depends on your taste and imagination, particularly your sense of rhythm and phrasing.)
    Mind you, you need a lot of chord shape knowledge!

  15. #30
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gersdal View Post
    Since nobody is commenting on any of the sheets I've posted, can I take it that it's crap? I don't want to go on posting crap...
    I think if they were crap someone would say so. Or post some kind of confused comments.

    Maybe not too many people are interested in this tune? Or they're busy working on your charts before getting back to you?

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