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Thread: Here's the idea:Song Analysis Thread

  1. #46
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    it's not useful in the future because we won't have done it often enough. repetition internalizes it and puts it in your head. it's not that the information isn't good. it's that too much of it at once, puts too much in your head at once and it becomes too difficult to associate sounds with theory. your mind will get stuff confused, and forget things. but if you keep it relatively short and sweet, and multiple songs that won't happen.

    like i said, you could explain to me how some formula works for physics, and i can understand, but if i'm going to use it in the future i need to do a bunch of problems that use it so i can easily remember it instantly.



    it's not to do with the content that i wrote that, just the quantity.

    you do it, playing along with songs, without learning those things, because you've internalized the sound. you know what the song sounds like, it must be simple songs, because they are predictable. if you've done this you can play anything just by hearing it. that's how. this is what i'm hoping this excercise will help us do. hear a chord progression and recognize it immediately. speak theory and hear it in your mind, hear music and describe it immediately. this is what internalizing is, to some degree, the other half of that would be to immediately hear, and immediately know where to put your fingers. one can help you to achieve the other. but this is the goal of learning music theory is it not? it is, for me anyways, i don't see how else it can be useful.

    you can say i'm wrong if you want to. that they must study songs through and through, but i know i don't do that and i know what i sound like. I'm sure everyone is different.

    your myxolydian scale comment is correct. this would be useful information to provide, but even more useful if we do many songs that use many modes. and compare one to the other otherwise, this piece of useful information might get lost completely over the multitude of other things we look at, and it gets kind of forgotten. you know what i mean? i'm not saying theory is bad, or only some limited theory is good. some stuff i do find more useful, true, but really what i'm saying is that we want to learn this inside out. you learn a martial art, first you start with one kick, one defense to one attack, and work on it. lots of times. you want to get automatic at it. fighting is not planned and analyzed, neither is music, it's in the moment, you must react immediately. there's not time to stop everything and look at what chord we are and what mode we're in. you must be instantaneous, hear and react, imagine and react. yes, you oculd practice that song for a while before playing it to do this. or, you can learn in such a way that you can do this with every song you hear immediately, because you've internalized everything.

    in a thread it is linear. i'm just concerned with the application of the thing. i'm not saying we shouldn't share theory. that would be pretty stupid, that's the whole point of this thing, and ya, it was my idea. why would i have an idea to make a song analysis section and then say that in our song analysis the main thing we shouldn't do is analyze songs.

    i'm not retarded. well not fully retarded. i'm just saying look ahead and imagine this thing. it could easily get out of hand, and i think we all want to benefit from it as much as possible, and all i'm doing is submitting methods i find would help us do that. you can disagree. i'm ok with that. i'm just stating my thoughts. take them or leave them. i'm not fighting against you. we have a common goal and a common idea and a common desire, and i'm submitting my thoughts at what problems and issues might be for achieving that and ways we can go about solving those. just exercising my complete lack of critical thinking.

    ya the threads will exist for a long time, point taken, could be good that way. but for right now, we are not a whole giant community. if we spend alot of time going super in depth on a tune, we will not be spending time looking at other tunes. threads won't close, we can always come back, somebody can post a question some day or whatever too. but i think that learning relatively few things but in many songs, is what would be best for all of us. learning alot in one song will be a less efficient use of our efforts, and i don't think will showup as much in our play. it will be much harder to internalize if we do too much at once.

    no, i'm not saying that sharing and stuff is a bad thing. why would i say that? you misunderstand me. i'm pointing out the difficulties of doing this in a forum. the benefits i think we can have, and some things i think we should be careful of if we want to make this work well and get from it what we all want to get from it. otherwise i could see it taking off like a horse race and then wilting like an old flower, and we have nothing to show for it.


    I don't know how i plan to implement such a strategy this is exactly the difficulty. we need to as a community wish for it, and conduct ourselves in a way that will allow things like this. we need to want it and make it happen. there's no way to control things to get that, except for subdivisions, or subfolders. but we won't have those. you see, this is why I had posted that post.

    maybe you have an idea how, that all your great critical thinking could provide us.

    in that paragraph i was saying: you can post multiple different pieces of information, like bpm, chord progression and all that in one post. this is just straight information. it's not words and description. this kind of thing is not going to hurt the process. it's the long posts full of different things, and going super in depth quickly, and all that, cause one guy will respond with one thing and we'll end up with posts like yours with tons of quotes from different guys going in different dircetions, nobody will have a chance to ask any questions or anything, we'll spend forever on one tune learning a whole bunch of stuff none of which we give enough attention to master, instead of learning less over multiple songs, being clear, practicing over them and getting opinions of others and stuff, for personal improvement, and then moving on to the next song. i personalyl think that's a better strategy. small bites, big chewing.

    you can't analyze music without music. to say you can is a ridiculous statement. like you said yourself, a chord progression is a far cry from being a song. alot of what makes a song a song, you need to hear. i realize there are features you can identify with songs, and compare and analyze the pieces of the tune. i'm aware of music theory and it's components. i've not internalized all of it though. dissecting a song using only theory, is not analysis of music. this is analysis of music theory. you know what i mean? music is heard, not written. although you can describe music with words. just like a painting is visual and not written, but you could describe it. describe it somewhat accurately if you know the right terminology. but it's not the same as seeing the painting. it never is. and if you are going to analyze a painting, you need to see it. music is this way. lots of tools to describe it, but intangibles you must hear.

    a computer can play any theory you can devise, but a computer will never play music like a human being can (well i won't say never, but can't right now). you can program all scales all theory mankind knows. but music is still more than that.

    i'm not worried about my lack of knowledge in music theory. not by a long shot. music theory is such simplicity. so i don't know some words, i'm like 10 seconds away from that wikipedia page. i'm not saying things for myself. i'm trying to suggest things to help make this a better experience for everybody. you think i'm wrong. that's ok. we'll see how my lack of critical thinking pans out.

    so far though, my critical thinking has gotten us this far. it didn't take long before we noticed the need for voting in song selection. as i had suggested in the first post that sparked the thing. no? I must be wrong about all this as well.

    i'm not sure you thought this whole thing through. the idea sounds great. but it doesn't just appear, we have to build it. step by step. imagine how that will workout. I think this thread will need to be highly moderated and with strict rules in order to work properly. but if we were grownups we could just realize that and be sensible of our own volition instead of being policed. but so far, it looks as though, you at least, have not yet foreseen the difficulties. seems like kind of a lack of critical thinking to me.

  2. #47
    JazzNerd gersdal's Avatar
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    Let me suggest that we put at least half the energy that is so far used in debating pro and cons of every detail into analysing the songs that we have so far chosen ...

    IMHO we have all different needs, and some easy songs and some more advanced songs are needed to make this interesting for as many as possible.

  3. #48
    Registered User bluesking's Avatar
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    Someone, please shoot me.

    But seriously, Gersdal is right.
    "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"

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  4. #49
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking View Post
    Someone, please shoot me.
    What with? Rifle, revolver, automatic, machine gun, crossbow, musket, cannon?
    What calibre? How far away should we stand?
    (See, some of us care about the details...)

  5. #50
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  6. #51
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    or do you mean someone please shoot ME? sorry, that post was direct at schooled, it wasn't intended to be read by you guys.

    I'd direct attention to that tune that we're looking at right now, except it's alot of chords, and right now, i'm recording/writing/arranging a tune so i'm not going to get into this particular one just yet. plus my guitar is still on the fritz. i can't figure this truss rod thing out. i put heavy strings on once stupidly not thinking that i'd need a truss rod adjustment for that, and ever since my guitar has been screwy. it looks like it has a way too huge bow in the neck. not a reverse bow though, and i don't want to overtighten it and break it. it feels really tight, but it's still bowed, the good way, but too much. it sucks. so i don't know what to do, i guess i'll have to get a technician to look at it, but what sucks is that's gonna cost money. the truss rod feels real tight too. is it possible that some rods loose gives back bow and tight the opposite? idk, i have since put light strings on, and i still get a too heavy bow in there. it's weird.

    so hopefully i'll be able to check out the next tune.

  7. #52
    JazzNerd gersdal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    or do you mean someone please shoot ME?
    Nope. I just wanted bluesking to have a fair chance

  8. #53
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    The best suggestion for basis IMHO is still JonR's list some pages ago. I suggest that we stick to that. Repeated here with IMO a few valuable bits from the discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by JonR + a few changes by gersdal

    An understanding of the following concepts.

    Harmony (chords and chord sequences).
    1. Key (major and minor)
    2. Chord structure. (Intervals, extensions.)
    3. Chord function - particularly tonic (I), dominant (V), subdominant (IV) and supertonic (ii) - the latter two being usually interchangeable.
    4. Secondary dominants.
    5. Modal tonalities, as distinct from major or minor keys.
    6. Modal interchange (often known as "borrowing" from other parallel scales, esp the natural minor).
    7. Use of substitutions

    Improvisation ("what they did" and "how else could you do it?):
    1. Scales used in improvisations,
    2. Motifs, phrasing, chromatic passing notes, outside playing, etc
    3. Scales that can be used for improvisation (based on key centre, function etc)
    4. Guide tones

    Rhythm:
    1. What are the rhythm section doing (elements of anticipation, delay, specific standard rhythm figures used etc)
    2. How do they interact with each other and the melody, soloist.
    3. Rhythmic feel (straight, swing, shuffle, etc).
    4. Meter/time signature. IOW, bars (measures), beats, beat divisions, etc.
    5. Tempo.

    Melody, song structure and performance:
    1. Melodic intervals. (Same terminology as harmonic intervals in chords, but the way individual notes interact one after the other is what melody is all about.)
    2. Form and structure (intro-verse-chorus-bridge-etc).
    3. Lyrics! Naturally, to any songwriter, the lyrics are 50% (at least) of what matters about the song. But it's arguable we needn't consider them at all in any analytical way in this thread, except perhaps to refer to times when the music seems to express something related to the lyrics. (If we are going to analyse lyrics beyond there, we'd need to bring in literary tools, to do with rhyme, syntax, scanning, etc.)

    Production. This is a big category, and is extremely important in rock. It includes all the following factors:
    1. Orchestration - ie, choice of instruments used, and whether the mix of instruments changes in the course of the song.
    2. Arrangement. Which notes are given to which instruments. (Maybe not tremendously important for rock, but occasionally worth considering.)
    3. Timbre, and use of electronic and studio effects. Extremely important in rock - generally under-theorised. One of those areas where musicians know extremely well what is "good" and "bad", without needing any theory about it. The most obvious "folk" element of rock music, in that knowledge about it is passed on by ear and word of mouth, in a very immediate and direct way.
    Last edited by gersdal; 01-21-2010 at 11:23 PM.

  9. #54
    Registered User bluesking's Avatar
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    This is all jolly good fun. I think we need to get the kitten to moderate this thread. He'll know what to do.

    Lots of good ideas here. Lets see how it all works in practice. I'll have a look at "Cry me a river" over the weekend. Hopefully I will be able to contribute something productive soon!
    "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"

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  10. #55
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    Tbh, I've always wondered about "Tokyo Dream" by Allan Holdsworth.

    His chord voicings in general are excellent, and seem to run a lot around second and third inversions rather than using "regular" root-on-top chords. I remember hearing one chord and going "woah, that was nice", and it was simply just a pure second inversion E major.

    Anyways: Chord voicings, possible reasons behind choosing those voicings, ideas to base your solo improvising on etc... It'd be pretty awesome.

    Song:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9xOomYyLI8

  11. #56
    Registered User bluesking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Jan View Post
    Tbh, I've always wondered about "Tokyo Dream" by Allan Holdsworth.

    His chord voicings in general are excellent, and seem to run a lot around second and third inversions rather than using "regular" root-on-top chords. I remember hearing one chord and going "woah, that was nice", and it was simply just a pure second inversion E major.

    Anyways: Chord voicings, possible reasons behind choosing those voicings, ideas to base your solo improvising on etc... It'd be pretty awesome.

    Song:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9xOomYyLI8
    Hi,
    please post suggestions in the following thread:

    http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...681#post140681

    Thanks!
    "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"

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  12. #57
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    Jan, there's a song suggestion thread that bluesking created for song suggestions you could stick this in. he's going to look through that thread and pick out the suggested tunes so we can vote on em in a poll at some point. so idk, if you or a mod could move this over there that would really help him out, because if song suggestions are here and there and everywhere, it'll be rough for him, or he just won't see it or remember it.

    EDIT: oh, beat me to it.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking View Post
    I don't know if you are the only one. From my point of view, JonR's posts are often the most lucid, useful, entertaining and complete I have seen on the internet. I think everyone has to appreciate the opportunity afforded by clear writting and the patience of a saint. Such techniques are the closest opportunity any one of us has to actually get inside someone else's mind.

    Perhaps you are asking for more than a forum can provide? Yes, there is a lot of talking here and perhaps its true not everyone understands what everyone else talks about. I think what you are actually looking for is not a forum, but a band. In a band you can play with other musicians and use your ears and hands as much as you need to. I actually quite like for this place to remain focused on talking about music because I already have plenty of opportunities to try "practical examples" either using recording media or other musicians.

    On the topic of the original post: Yes, I am prepared to try the idea however I have a few reservations:

    1.) How do we stop these song studies going off-topic?

    2.) I personally will only contribute to those songs that I have an interest in learning. Life is to short to learn music one isn't interested in.

    3.) As I can't read standard notation I expect my interest in a given thread will disappear when I see it (another reason why I enjoy JonR's posts so much!)

    4.) How are we going to choose songs which are of interest to both experienced and less experienced players?
    I don't think we are out to write a book. You're right, we could write a book about it, but this is a forum... we throw each other a bone and hopefully as a result we grow


    Mod Note - please don't post commercial links (especially those that have zero to do with music). Links removed by mod.
    Last edited by Crossroads; 01-07-2011 at 09:23 AM.

  14. #59
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    I like the idea of your concept and it will help everyone for this. Exchanging of thoughts and ideas will complement for this topic. We only need a useful comments that would help the thread.

  15. #60
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    great idea thanks...
    http://www.mp3songs.tv

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