Welcome!
Just a few a ground rules first...

Promotion, advertising and link building is not permitted.

If you are keen to learn, get to grips with something with the willing help of one of the net's original musician forums
or possess a genuine willingness to contribute knowledge - you've come to the right place!

Register >

- Close -
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 64

Thread: Here's the idea:Song Analysis Thread

  1. #16
    JazzNerd gersdal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Norway - South West coast
    Posts
    1,321
    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking View Post
    I don't know if you are the only one. From my point of view, JonR's posts are often the most lucid, useful, entertaining and complete I have seen on the internet. I think everyone has to appreciate the opportunity afforded by clear writting and the patience of a saint. Such techniques are the closest opportunity any one of us has to actually get inside someone else's mind.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking View Post
    1.) How do we stop these song studies going off-topic?
    Let's hope the mods can help us (I've spotted two irregularities already - and one of them is mine )

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking View Post
    2.) I personally will only contribute to those songs that I have an interest in learning. Life is to short to learn music one isn't interested in.
    Understandable, but stretch it a bit ... your contributions would be great and are always of interest.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking View Post
    3.) As I can't read standard notation I expect my interest in a given thread will disappear when I see it (another reason why I enjoy JonR's posts so much!)
    I'll always include tab.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking View Post
    4.) How are we going to choose songs which are of interest to both experienced and less experienced players?
    I don't think we always can. We have to chose by interest from the individuals. some will die due to lack of interest, and some will live. Survival of the fattest... or fittest

  2. #17
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    863
    i'm not making any bad remarks of JonR's posts. i'm not saying anything bad about them, but seriously, when you read what he's saying, you hear the sounds?

    it's like, if i want to get anything from those posts i need to whip out my guitar and spend like forever playing stuff, when if we were talkign about a tune, it would be easy, you say this time t othat time, record a little something, and then post it again.

    true, it's more work to post, but also, you're sayign alot more in a way. and i'd rather have less information but with sound. because music is sound.

    ya, this is more than a forum can provide, but no more than a forum that's on the internet. the internet can do absolutely anything.

    i'm saying, let's not limit ourself to the features of a forum. let's just be people together that use the internet.

    sorry i hadn't seen your post gersdal where you posted the link to the tune you were talking about.

    but ya, you can find tunes on youtube, but if we're not talking about the same one, then it doesn't make much sense.

    bluesking, it's not learning songs you're not interested in. people are interesetd in different kinds of music for different reasons. the trick is to find those reasons and learn that things and exploit it and that way mix and match all sorts of things from all sorts of styles to make a super style. like bruce lee did with kung fu. but whatever, you don't have to do that. it's your loss though i think.

    My guitar is just temporarily a little untweaked in a semi-severe way. i don't know when you call a master a master. but i'm confident at my ability to play multiple instruments in any style.


    but whatever, I think my original point was lost completely... nevermind. I'm busy writing and recording and producing right now anyways.

  3. #18
    Registered User bluesking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Bristol, UK
    Posts
    687
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    ... but seriously, when you read what he's saying, you hear the sounds?
    Most of the time, yes. When I don't hear the sounds I go to my instrument and learn those sounds. That way, next time it is mentioned I can hear it.
    "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"

    Hidden Content

  4. #19
    Registered User bluesking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Bristol, UK
    Posts
    687
    Quote Originally Posted by gersdal View Post
    I'll always include tab.
    That would be greatly appreciated. I can read standard notation pitch at a measly 1 note every 30 seconds and I am pretty poor with rhythm notation too. I don't get much chance to practice it either so it never improves!

    I'll deffinitely look at our current tune, but agree that it should be moved into a seperate topic ASAP.

    Ideally we could have a new sub-forum to contain any future posts (e.g. strickly sub-forum). Of course I expect the mods will want to see if this idea has legs before they go to the trouble of messing with the forum code which is totally fair enough.

    For now perhaps we could sticky 2 topics:

    1.) "Cry me a river" analysis (to keep us dying from administrative boredom)
    2.) Future song suggestions.

    Ideally an informal time-limit should be placed on topic 2 (maybe 2 weeks?) After that any and all suggestions in "Future songs" should then be entered into a stickied poll to decide on the next song.

    Another 2 weeks of polling and we have a new song in a total of 1 month. When the new song rolls-out we clear the poll statistics and keep rolling every month?

    I'd be happy to help the mods in any way. If they agree I will create the appropriate posts and request them to sticky them.

    metaljustice? crossroads?
    "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"

    Hidden Content

  5. #20
    Registered User bluesking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Bristol, UK
    Posts
    687
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    but whatever, I think my original point was lost completely... nevermind. I'm busy writing and recording and producing right now anyways.
    Look, nothing is going to work well if we start getting petulant. No one is attacking you. I simply felt that I had to make JonR feel appreciated. He is the main reason I started reading this forum in the first place.

    Things have been pretty slow around here for quite a while. I don't know if its the christmas holidays which are always so busy for everyone or what. From my point of view I have been coming here less and less over the last couple of months mainly because petty arguments are now so common-place. No one can post a simple question or simple piece of advice without being picked apart on some philosophical grounds.

    I'm kinda starting to think that trying this idea out is my (own personal) last hope for getting some further enjoyment and education from this forum. Thats why I'm so keen to help.
    "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"

    Hidden Content

  6. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    863
    that's cool man, i didn't mean to make JonR feel unappreciated, i wasn't making a statement about what he was saying, but just my ability to assimilate it.

    it would be cool, but like you said, arguments can sometimes start, and sidetracks can start and all sorts of stuff, that's why i think things need to be organized. in some kind of way. i'm glad you're keen, and i like you want to learn. these are all great things. but there have been threads about songs before. this is not different. i think in order to be stronger, there needs to be some sort of method. if it's just a free for all, then why have any sort of idea at all? just start any thread about any song whenever you want. we could have always done that. and still can. but with a little effort i just thought it could have been stronger.

    but, it's ok, i mean, like i said, i don't feel i was attacked, i don't have hard feelings, it's all good. people should do as they wish to do. i don't judge them. except i do think that without proper structure this will slowly melt away. which i don't think is what people want. i could be wrong though.

    the structure could be anything though, even like a new section instead of cafe or theory or whatever, that is just songs. each thread is its own song. that might be ok too, but the downer of that is i feel some people might get short changed if their style of music is less popular. that's all. every man wants everything for himself to be as good as poosible all the time. never to take a little worse in order to give more to his neighbour. and often like in the case of traffic, this type of behaviour ends up being worse for the man himself even on individual terms.

    even in this thread already two songs were brought up too. not exactly ideal.

    i also think the more we attach links of audio and stuff like that the better it will be, and if we study actual recordings, but that's just me.

    idk, we can do whatever we want. but it's probably best to decide together what we want i find. i feel this thread was kind of intended to be that, and then i feel we jumped the gun a little and skipped over all of that part, which i find was quite an important part.

  7. #22
    Mod
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Maryland USA
    Posts
    1,334
    Ok.....Lets try to sort all this out.

    1st, My intention was to get a list of possibilities and then pick a few and do a poll. It seems as though some are happy w/ doing cry me a river, and others aren't. Lets say we do cry me a river as a test run as we are polling.

    2nd I can't stop people from creating a thread about a song and trying to analyze it. THats more than fine. The idea behind all this is that it is a collaborative effort for the folks here at ibreathe.

    I too want to see ibreathe flourish. And it seems this could be a small thing to help. I don't think anyone wants this place to go away.

    Bluesking if you want to create the posts that everyone agrees I will sticky them if that is the general consensus.

    Fingerpickingood, what can we do to make this more like the original idea. Just because there is sheet music/lead sheets doesn't mean it can't be a aural analyzation or what ever other option there is. As long as its related to the song its all good. If you want to record your version of a song. Great that may get analyzed too.

    Does this help?

  8. #23
    JazzNerd gersdal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Norway - South West coast
    Posts
    1,321
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    i feel this thread was kind of intended to be that, and then i feel we jumped the gun a little and skipped over all of that part, which i find was quite an important part.
    That was me that jumped the gun, and I'm sorry. I didnt notice that the whole thing was under debate still.

    I'll try to slow down.

    Quote Originally Posted by BluesKing
    keep us dying from administrative boredom
    +1

  9. #24
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Twickenham, UK
    Posts
    4,959
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    i'm not making any bad remarks of JonR's posts. i'm not saying anything bad about them, but seriously, when you read what he's saying, you hear the sounds?
    Well, I can't myself, so why should anyone else?
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    it's like, if i want to get anything from those posts i need to whip out my guitar and spend like forever playing stuff
    Well, you should be doing that anyway. It's what I always do if I want to test out some theoretical idea. (My guitar is always right beside me as I type, but I guess not everyone is that lucky.)
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    , when if we were talkign about a tune, it would be easy, you say this time t othat time, record a little something, and then post it again.
    Not so easy for me. I don't have an operational recording set-up at the moment, and even if I did it would take time to prepare MP3s.
    Good idea tho.
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    true, it's more work to post, but also, you're sayign alot more in a way. and i'd rather have less information but with sound. because music is sound.
    Of course, but theory is all about being able to talk about music without the sounds. It's a written, verbal language, that's the point of it.
    Hopefully, I'm not presenting ideas that you can't translate on to your own guitar (or keyboard) if you want to.
    If there's anything you don't understand in my posts (and I guess there might be... ), just ask. But be prepared to put in a little work yourself (ie, picking up your guitar and trying stuff out).
    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    but whatever, I think my original point was lost completely... nevermind. I'm busy writing and recording and producing right now anyways.
    Great! Post us some examples when ready. (It's what I need to find time to do myself. But I keep getting drawn to these damn theory boards...)

  10. #25
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Twickenham, UK
    Posts
    4,959
    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking View Post
    On the topic of the original post: Yes, I am prepared to try the idea however I have a few reservations:

    1.) How do we stop these song studies going off-topic?
    Vigilant and ruthless mods?
    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking View Post
    2.) I personally will only contribute to those songs that I have an interest in learning. Life is to short to learn music one isn't interested in.
    I sympathise. Personally, I feel life is too short for anything else. I like to at least dip into music I don't normally listen to myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking View Post
    3.) As I can't read standard notation I expect my interest in a given thread will disappear when I see it (another reason why I enjoy JonR's posts so much!)
    Thanks. But as long as you understand chord symbols (and can play given examples), you should be able to get something out of the posts here.
    I'd be happy to post tab any time I thought it would help significantly. (I didn't see the need in my look at Cry Me A River, which was just about the chord changes.)
    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking View Post
    4.) How are we going to choose songs which are of interest to both experienced and less experienced players?
    Anyone can suggest anything, IMO, and anyone else can pick up the baton and attempt an analysis.
    It may be that some songs deserve a thread of their own. (Something similar happens occasionally on allaboutjazz.)
    And it may be a good idea to have some kind of voting system, whereby a suggested song needs to be seconded by someone else (or even 2 or 3 more) before we embark on taking it to pieces.

    Meantime, Malcolm threw a few good ideas in a while back, for simpler songs than Cry Me a River (which is admittedly a relatively advanced jazz tune, theoretically - maybe not the best example to begin with).

    It might also be an idea to look at general principles of song analysis: what are the tools we need in order to dismantle a popular song?
    Last edited by JonR; 01-18-2010 at 09:39 AM.

  11. #26
    Registered User bluesking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Bristol, UK
    Posts
    687
    OK,

    I've created 2 topics to get us going. Please sticky them and if you can, transfer any posts related to "Cry Me a River" to the appropriate post.
    "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"

    Hidden Content

  12. #27
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    863
    I have no beef with the tune cry me a river, and i have no problem with doing lead sheets.

    it;s true that songs like that wouldn't be my first choice because they are already a little complex and so you can't just add to them, you need to change them to get a certain level of freedom.

    but that's ok. i want songs that i don't want..... if that makes any sense.


    ya i saw that there were a couple of threads created i think that will help all our cases.

    my guitar is right next to me as i type, but still, i find it unwieldy to look at theory that way.

    i mean sometimes the rhythm matters, sometimes the specific inversion matters, there's so much at play. so, for me, when someone says you can play this here, then it's like, well ok, but what do you mean exactly? you know? like ya, someone could be so excited about how awesome a chord progression is, and shows me it, and i'm like, ooooh, that's not so hot, but then if they send me the recording, it's like ooooh that IS awesome!

    but that's ok, i don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth either. i mean i think the important thing of such an exercise, is to learn the tunes and all that. and things you say in your posts will be valuable to me once i get into a tune.

    you know what? if i were you, i'd collect a bit of extra cash and buy myself a few bits and pieces that will allow me to record onto my computer and then download reaper.

    not just for my sake, but i find such a thing a great tool, for improv, you can record any chord progression in any tempo or rhythm, and then record some secondary rhythm guitar of sorts, and then freestyle over it. awesome. I also find it a good songwriting tool. it can be good for just guitar, the nice thing is you can hear stuff how it sounds recorded and judge it, but really where this takes off is if you get a bunch of VSTs for extra instruments like violins and basses and anything you can imagine, but then you need a midi keyboard as well, and although there are some free VSTs out there, really this would take you into a whole other price bracket.

    but an audio interface, a soundcard designed for instruments, you could find some of those second hand for not too much. audacity is free and reaper is only 60$ like 35 quid roughly i think. so i'd say for about 100 quid you could be fully setup to record nice sounding guitar. possibly less.

  13. #28
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    863
    ya bluesking i can't read standard notation either. but that's ok you only need to for the melody. but on pieces like this, they tend to embellish chords sometimes including the melody note and sometimes not, so when you improvise over them sometimes you need to change the chords.


    but don't worry, i'm in the same boat as you. we'll figure it out. pretty much any melody i could ear out on a piano in no time, i could record it, quantize it and send it to you. or even, i have a program that should be able to "read" standard notation and convert it to midi.

    then you could listen to it alone, tempo change it, and see what's the note names on the piano roll.

    i'm not sure how you are on piano, but note names on piano is much easier than guitar. you know one octave, you know them all, and also, the notes are all in perfect order.


    but also, this might be an opportunity for us to learn to read standard notation.

    alot of melodies are not that complex, they are not like solos improvised. so relatively simple.

    and here's something to remember with standard notation.

    in standard notation, they decide what key you're in. so once you've done that, every note is only in that key unless there is a # or a b next to that note. if say in the key of Bb there are 4 flats. (i think that's right) 4 flats will be written in the margin on left hand side next to key signature.

    and then you know what's the tonic, and every note almost will be in that key. so it makes reading alot easier if you think of it that way.

    the tempo is a little tricky, but song after song, if we did them, i think it would eventually come without much effort at all.


    so, ya, we don't understand standard notation, but if we are humble and open with weaknesses and ask questions, we'll get around it, and maybe learn to read it. we'll figure it out. we can learn any song even if we don't know standard notation. but if we learn the simple melodies, then we might be able to get to a point where we could read freestyles, and complex pieces, and then we'd have opened a whole new can of worms.

    so actually standard notation might be really good.

    usually stuff that's worth doing is hard. often this means one doesn't want to do it. but that's what this is right? we want to learn, so we need to look at stuff we don't know i think.

    every man has knowledge to share, every style, every thing. it's just sometimes you gotta look harder into it. that's why i think it good to do songs you don't want to do. when you only do what you want to do, you are likely limiting yourself.

    imagine growing up as children and only learning what we wanted to learn, only doing the homework we wanted to do. we'd still be in grade 3.

    idk, you know? it's up to you obviously, but that's how i see it. ya, life is maybe too short to do stuff you don't want to do, but maybe it's also too short to keep putting off stuff you don't want to do that will take you to the next level.
    Last edited by fingerpikingood; 01-18-2010 at 01:57 PM.

  14. #29
    Registered User bluesking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Bristol, UK
    Posts
    687
    I imagine we will both figure it out. Either that or we will strangle each other in sheer frustration!

    Either way I'm glad you are on hand to bail me out of my complete musical inability.
    "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"

    Hidden Content

  15. #30
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    863
    lol, I know you were joking but really, inability to read sheet music is a far cry from musical inability. paul mccartney can't read sheet music.

Similar Threads

  1. The muting thread
    By phantom in forum Guitar Technique
    Replies: 60
    Last Post: 09-06-2012, 01:18 PM
  2. general listening analysis for the strickly pentatonic thread
    By Schooligo in forum Composition, Arranging & Analysis
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 08-04-2005, 06:38 AM
  3. Classical Theory/Jazz Theory & Analysis
    By rmuscat in forum Music Theory
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 01-12-2005, 03:03 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •