Welcome!
Just a few a ground rules first...

Promotion, advertising and link building is not permitted.

If you are keen to learn, get to grips with something with the willing help of one of the net's original musician forums
or possess a genuine willingness to contribute knowledge - you've come to the right place!

Register >

- Close -
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 23 of 23

Thread: It's time to learn Modal Inversions!!

  1. #16
    Registered User ragasaraswati's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    293
    And this is "Toccata and Fugue in D minor" by Bach:




    Compare with the "Invertions of Modes" by Upwt M. Tohh.

  2. #17
    Registered User dmsstudios's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Lost City of Atlanta
    Posts
    310
    Quote Originally Posted by ragasaraswati
    Also, I suspect retrograde inversion might work better than just inversion. Try Frere Jacques first in major (or ionian) and then with inversion in phrygian. Sounds like poopoo.
    But in retrograde inversion, again in phrygian, it sounds at least descent and might even remind you of original Frere Jacques.
    Cool pic! Is that you?

    Are you sure that you understand the difference between inversion & retrograde? Just checking...
    I tried 'Brother John' in inversion (meaning that ascending notes will now descend, and vice versa), and I tried it in retrograde inversion. I have to agree that it does sound slightly more like the original in retro inversion, although it still sounds pretty inverted, but we are hitting a few of the same key notes in retro inver at the same time as in primary.

    The idea here is that frere jacques has the same subconscious effect in primary as it does in inversion, not to try to make it resemble the original, as we understand it in four dimensions.
    Dan

    -on the right in jeans
    Hidden Content

  3. #18
    Registered User dmsstudios's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Lost City of Atlanta
    Posts
    310
    Quote Originally Posted by jimc8p
    I think in this instance it's just the nature of the pattern, not something significant or useful.
    I tried, but I do not understand that picture. I thought you were a math musician? Do you really think this is an insignificant coincidence that every mode inverted is another mode? (except dorian)?
    Dan

    -on the right in jeans
    Hidden Content

  4. #19
    Registered User dmsstudios's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Lost City of Atlanta
    Posts
    310
    Quote Originally Posted by bluesking
    How would I use this? Am I to modulate from one "modal key" to another? Or is it instead simply a melodic device, in which case, how do I harmonise it given that most posters dispute the "functional" use of this idea?
    Exactly what I'm trying to figure out as well, except for the functional part - there probably isnt any popular functionality in this concept, although, Im not 100% sure just yet.
    Dan

    -on the right in jeans
    Hidden Content

  5. #20
    Registered User dmsstudios's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Lost City of Atlanta
    Posts
    310
    Epiphany! Coltrane changes.

    Descending from Eb:
    Eb........B.............G........Eb..........B.... ....G
    Eb(io) - Eb(phry) - G(io) - G(phry) - B(io) - B(phry)


    How about it?
    Dan

    -on the right in jeans
    Hidden Content

  6. #21
    Registered User jimc8p's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Midlands, UK
    Posts
    494
    Quote Originally Posted by dmsstudios
    I tried, but I do not understand that picture. I thought you were a math musician? Do you really think this is an insignificant coincidence that every mode inverted is another mode? (except dorian)?
    You thought I was a math musician?? I guess the pic I posted isn't very easy to decipher in that circular format..this should hopefully make it make sense.

    Attached pic represents one 'mode spectrum' in C (the typical way you would think about parallel modes). 7 columns wide (each mode) and 13 potential dots high (each note from low to high respectively, including the octave). The vertical intervals between dots represent each modal scale's interval pattern. Just to make clear I added the notes to the column 2nd from right (C Ionian). Far right is Lydian with the 4th sharpened, 3rd from right is Mixo with the 7th flattened, and so on? If you were to continue this image to the left, after Locrian, the only interval left to flatten would be the root creating a B Lydian scale. Of course the same applies in reverse going from left to right (or clockwise in relation to the first image). Anyway, this cycle of flattening/sharpening can continue until it will join back up with the starting position (IOW it repeats in a circular fashion). The pic I first posted is just that, except with a couple more octaves. The circumfral axis (horizontal below) represents this giant 'mode spectrum', the radial axis (vertical below) represents notes ascending into the centre. Hmm..I honestly apologise if this is an over-complicated explanation, it should be simple in theory!

    The point is, the 'stepping' pattern that parallel modes create is very uniform. Its inversion will not alter its overall nature. Try it - open the image below and flip it vertically. The pattern is inverted but remains intact, (meaning some modal scales invert as others).
    Last edited by jimc8p; 10-08-2009 at 02:50 PM.

  7. #22
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    252
    Quote Originally Posted by dmsstudios
    I've been messing with Slonimsky's book and I've inadventently made this discovery, but I'm not yet sure what it means. Just to be clear, we're using the same key for everything - key x, doesnt matter, but it has to be the same always for everything. We are discussing primary and inversion directions, as in:

    primary=the music (scale,phrase) played normally, as written, left to right
    retrograde=played backward (right to left)
    inversion=mirror version; each interval change played in the opposite direction
    retrograde inversion=inversion played backward (right to left)

    But we're just on primary & inversion here, backwards is just backwards. Anyway, here it is - first is primary, second is inversion:

    Ionian=Phrygian
    Dorian=Dorian
    Phrygian=Ionian
    Lydian=Locrian
    Mixolydian=Aeolian
    Aeolian=Mixolydian
    Locrian=Lydian

    I'm game to hear thoughts/observations from you all. I'm not even sure what to say beyond what I've already written, but I'll be pondering this. Help is appreciated, if you think you're capable and realize that I didnt just learn the modes yesterday. So what do you think?
    I stumbled on this 6 years ago in college and hoped no one else had noticed it so I could one day throw it in one of my books. I showed the idea to a handful of my music teachers and none of them had thought of it before, which delighted me as an aspiring music theorist.

    Nice to see someone else thinks the same way as me, I suppose, but in the future, instead of eagerly posting such ideas to the message board, why not save them up for your own use, or even better, publish them!

    If we give away all our secrets here none of us are going to make any money, or get credit for our 'original' ideas.

  8. #23
    Registered User dmsstudios's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Lost City of Atlanta
    Posts
    310
    Quote Originally Posted by jessmanca
    I stumbled on this 6 years ago in college and hoped no one else had noticed it so I could one day throw it in one of my books. I showed the idea to a handful of my music teachers and none of them had thought of it before, which delighted me as an aspiring music theorist.

    Nice to see someone else thinks the same way as me, I suppose, but in the future, instead of eagerly posting such ideas to the message board, why not save them up for your own use, or even better, publish them!

    If we give away all our secrets here none of us are going to make any money, or get credit for our 'original' ideas.
    High five! I really appreciate you saying that. Yes, you're probably right about protecting intellectual property. A lot of people tend to dismiss ideas that they dont understand. Pearls before swine? I never finished my degree, so I'm sometimes not sure if my ideas are new or old. You just made my day! Thanks
    Dan

    -on the right in jeans
    Hidden Content

Similar Threads

  1. How do you see the fretboard?
    By sikbom in forum Improvisation
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: 12-10-2008, 07:17 AM
  2. How to structure your practicing?
    By Tony in forum Guitar Technique
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 10-09-2008, 01:36 PM
  3. How Did the Giants Learn Guitar?
    By Bongo Boy in forum iBreathe Cafe
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 07-11-2007, 05:42 PM
  4. "Groove"
    By Spino in forum Bass Technique
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 10-23-2006, 06:42 PM
  5. music school part time?
    By HotBacon in forum iBreathe Cafe
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-18-2006, 12:33 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •