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Thread: In what mode am I today

  1. #16
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    hi i want to give some thoughts about modes (the way i understand it)

    if you are in C major for istance and you use only the tones of the scale then its not important to know the mode of each chord (G myxolidian ecc...) the important thing is to recognize by ear when the mode changes (you start to use black tones ) a good example of what im trying to say its the bolero of ravel where there is only one chord (C/G the chord is C major but the main harmony tone is the G) and the mode changes (i dont know the name of the modes it starts with C major mode then move to myxolidian then to 6m 7m mode then to
    another mode that uses Db Eb F G Ab Bb then to C major again) i think this is the first example of modal music

  2. #17
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luca19575
    hi i want to give some thoughts about modes (the way i understand it)

    if you are in C major for istance and you use only the tones of the scale then its not important to know the mode of each chord (G myxolidian ecc...) the important thing is to recognize by ear when the mode changes (you start to use black tones ) a good example of what im trying to say its the bolero of ravel where there is only one chord (C/G the chord is C major but the main harmony tone is the G) and the mode changes (i dont know the name of the modes it starts with C major mode then move to myxolidian then to 6m 7m mode then to
    another mode that uses Db Eb F G Ab Bb then to C major again) i think this is the first example of modal music
    I'm not sure if Ravel thought of what he was doing in those terms, but we can certainly look at it what way.

    The first chromatic note is a Bb, which (you're right) suggests C mixolydian. I don't see an Ab though, until the bit (on bassoon in the original) that uses Db, Bb and Ab (along with C, F and G) - but no Eb that I can see. It goes down to an E natural in fact. These notes are the F harmonic minor scale, which (on a C bass as here) makes C phrygian dominant: the classic indicator of the Spanish flamenco/gypsy sound. The melody in this section makes a lot of that extremely dissonant Db over a repeated bass C. What jazz musicians would call a b9 .
    Then it starts a section on a D natural, with a pitch collection that includes Ab, Bb and E, along with C, F, and G. This is C mixolydian b6 (5th mode F melodic minor) - but it merges (as it runs down) into a scale with Eb and Db at the bottom, resolving to C: C phrygian.
    (I haven't looked beyond there.)

    Definitely a good example of modal interchange, or what Joe Satriani would call "pitch axis".


    BTW, I found a great animation to Bolero, that I first saw decades ago - one of the most memorable film accompaniments to music I've ever seen:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GHWLUTWWms
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9els...eature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESsQUHZuqYg&NR=1
    Evolution from a coke bottle discarded by astronauts! (scary ending: Man!)
    Last edited by JonR; 10-27-2008 at 06:16 PM.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood
    her's a sidenote. i'm right now trying to find a chord sequence that is of a specific mode. but here's what i'm donering, what is it about a chord sequence that decides whether it is G ionian, or A dorian, or E aeolian, or B phrygian or whatever.
    Sorry, could not get your link to work so I'm posting it here. I found the info (and translated it) here http://forums.audiofanzine.com/index...cat,42500.html (french)


    Dorian

    Primary chords = Im-IIm-IV
    Secondary chords = IIIb-Vm-VIIb
    Suspended chords = IV4-VII4
    Chord to avoid = VIm(b5)
    Pedal = IIm-IIIb-IV-Vm-VIIb
    Cadences = IIm-Im IV-Im IIm/3-Im
    Extensions = Im11-IIm7(add11)-IIIbMaj9-IVadd9-Vm11-VIIbMaj9



    Phrygian

    Primary chords = Im-IIb-VIIbm
    Secondary chords = IIIb-IVm-VIb
    Suspended chords = IIIb4-VIb4
    Chord to avoid = Vm(b5)
    Pedal = IIb-IIIb-IVm-VIb-VIIbm
    Cadences = IIb-Im VIIbm-Im IIb/3-Im VIIbm/5-Im
    Extensions = Im7add11-IIbMaj9(#11)-IIIbadd9-IVm11-VIbMaj9-VIIbm11



    Lydian

    Primary chords = I-II-VIIm
    Secondary chords = IIIm-V-VIm
    Suspended chords = II4-V4
    Chord to avoid = IV#m(b5)
    Pedal = II-IIIm-V-VIm-VIIm
    Cadences = II-I VIIm-I
    Extensions = IMaj9(#11)-II6/9-IIIm11- VMaj9-VIm11-VIIm7add11



    Mixolydian

    Primary chords = I-Vm-VIIb
    Secondary chords = IIm-IV-VIm
    Suspended chords = I4-IV4
    Chord to avoid = IIIm(b5)
    Pedal = IIm-IV-Vm-VIm-VIIb
    Cadences = Vm7-I VIIb-I VIIb/5-1
    Extensions = IaddMaj9-IIm11-IVMaj9-Vm11-VIm7add11-VIIbMaj9(#11)


    Aeolian

    Primary chords = Im-Vm-VIIb
    Secondary chords = IIIb-IVm-VIb
    Suspended chords = IIIb4-VIIb4
    Chord to avoid = IIm(b5)
    Pedal = IIIb-IVm-Vm-VIb-VIIb
    Cadences = Vm7-Im VIIb-Im VIIb"5-Im
    Extensions = Im11-IIIbMaj9-IVm11-Vm7add11-VIbMaj9(#11)-VIIbadd9


    Locrian

    Primary chords = Im7(b5)-IIb-Vb-VIIbm
    Secondary chords = IIIbm-IVm-VIb
    Suspended chords = IIb4-VIb4
    Chord to avoid = none
    Pedal = IIb-IIIbm-IVm-Vb-VIb-VIIbm
    Cadences = IIb-Im IIb-Im7(b5)-IVm Vb-Im Vb-Im7(b5)-IVm VIIbm-Im VIIbm-Im7(b5)-IVm
    Extensions = Im7(b5)add1-IIbMaj9-IIIbm11-IVm7add11-VbMaj9(#11)-VIbadd9-VIIbm11


    Hope it helps

  4. #19
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    adminor, wow, nice that definitely looks very useful indeed.

    sorry, i don't know what i did wrong with the link.


    ya that bolero track really sounds to me like it goes into a phrygian style at one part. but i would never have pegged the mixolydian.

    anyways here's my mode game sample. it's piano not guitar though.

    to be honest i'm not exactly sure which mode it is. it's a little bit tricky because i play some notes that are not part of the mode at times, but the chord sequence is always the same, and i don't go off and play a different scale, so it should be considered always the same mode i think.

    for me, it's a tossup between two modes. this one confuses me, that's why i chose it, so maybe you guys could help clear something up for me. I don't wanna say why it confuses so as not to affect your guess, but maybe you'll figure out why i'm confused when you hear it, or maybe you won't understand my confusion and it will just seem obvious to you.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by fingerpikingood; 10-27-2008 at 07:14 PM.

  5. #20
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abminor
    Sorry, could not get your link to work so I'm posting it here. I found the info (and translated it) here http://forums.audiofanzine.com/index...cat,42500.html (french)


    Dorian

    Primary chords = Im-IIm-IV
    Secondary chords = IIIb-Vm-VIIb
    Suspended chords = IV4-VII4
    Chord to avoid = VIm(b5)
    Pedal = IIm-IIIb-IV-Vm-VIIb
    Cadences = IIm-Im IV-Im IIm/3-Im
    Extensions = Im11-IIm7(add11)-IIIbMaj9-IVadd9-Vm11-VIIbMaj9



    Phrygian

    Primary chords = Im-IIb-VIIbm
    Secondary chords = IIIb-IVm-VIb
    Suspended chords = IIIb4-VIb4
    Chord to avoid = Vm(b5)
    Pedal = IIb-IIIb-IVm-VIb-VIIbm
    Cadences = IIb-Im VIIbm-Im IIb/3-Im VIIbm/5-Im
    Extensions = Im7add11-IIbMaj9(#11)-IIIbadd9-IVm11-VIbMaj9-VIIbm11



    Lydian

    Primary chords = I-II-VIIm
    Secondary chords = IIIm-V-VIm
    Suspended chords = II4-V4
    Chord to avoid = IV#m(b5)
    Pedal = II-IIIm-V-VIm-VIIm
    Cadences = II-I VIIm-I
    Extensions = IMaj9(#11)-II6/9-IIIm11- VMaj9-VIm11-VIIm7add11



    Mixolydian

    Primary chords = I-Vm-VIIb
    Secondary chords = IIm-IV-VIm
    Suspended chords = I4-IV4
    Chord to avoid = IIIm(b5)
    Pedal = IIm-IV-Vm-VIm-VIIb
    Cadences = Vm7-I VIIb-I VIIb/5-1
    Extensions = IaddMaj9-IIm11-IVMaj9-Vm11-VIm7add11-VIIbMaj9(#11)


    Aeolian

    Primary chords = Im-Vm-VIIb
    Secondary chords = IIIb-IVm-VIb
    Suspended chords = IIIb4-VIIb4
    Chord to avoid = IIm(b5)
    Pedal = IIIb-IVm-Vm-VIb-VIIb
    Cadences = Vm7-Im VIIb-Im VIIb"5-Im
    Extensions = Im11-IIIbMaj9-IVm11-Vm7add11-VIbMaj9(#11)-VIIbadd9


    Locrian

    Primary chords = Im7(b5)-IIb-Vb-VIIbm
    Secondary chords = IIIbm-IVm-VIb
    Suspended chords = IIb4-VIb4
    Chord to avoid = none
    Pedal = IIb-IIIbm-IVm-Vb-VIb-VIIbm
    Cadences = IIb-Im IIb-Im7(b5)-IVm Vb-Im Vb-Im7(b5)-IVm VIIbm-Im VIIbm-Im7(b5)-IVm
    Extensions = Im7(b5)add1-IIbMaj9-IIIbm11-IVm7add11-VbMaj9(#11)-VIbadd9-VIIbm11


    Hope it helps
    I disagree with some of these, esp locrian. Locrian simply won't work like that. Basically you need to avoid all the other chords apart from Im7b5.
    I mean, try it anyway, see what you think. IMO you'll hear the bII chord as the tonic chord (because it's I in the relative major).

    And the "Pedal" line should include the phrase "all over the tonic" (as bass note) IOW slash chords with the tonic in the bass.

  6. #21
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood
    anyways here's my mode game sample. it's piano not guitar though.

    to be honest i'm not exactly sure which mode it is. it's a little bit tricky because i play some notes that are not part of the mode at times, but the chord sequence is always the same, and i don't go off and play a different scale, so it should be considered always the same mode i think.

    for me, it's a tossup between two modes. this one confuses me, that's why i chose it, so maybe you guys could help clear something up for me. I don't wanna say why it confuses so as not to affect your guess, but maybe you'll figure out why i'm confused when you hear it, or maybe you won't understand my confusion and it will just seem obvious to you.
    Your chord sequence is Gm, C, Am, Dm.
    I don't get a clear sense of overall tonality. All the chords fit the F major scale, but I don't really get a sense of G dorian from it (or C mixolydian, A phrygian or D aeolian). As there is no F chord, it doesn't really sound like the F major key to me.
    I may be mistaken but I don't hear a B or Bb other than on the Gm chord (at least in the first half or so), which would establish clearer modal sounds on the other 3 chords.

    What I suggest (if you want to investigate modal quality more) is to make more of the Bb on the chords and see what you think. Each chord lasts long enough for its modal identity to be heard - but you need to underline distinctive modal notes to make it plain. (Particularly the Bb on the C, Am and Dm chords. And an E natural in phrases on the Gm would make its "dorian-ness" plainer.)

    As it is, I hear a kind of meandering sequence in sort-of F major. The cycle of 5ths (A-D-G-C) could lead to an F chord, but it doesn't arrive, and the harmonic rhythm is quite slow (2 chords per bar) and regular. Also the C lacks its 7th, which might would suggest an approaching resolution to F more.
    ("Meandering" isn't a bad thing . Just means no clear goal or tonal focus.)

    If you really want it to be G dorian (say), play Gm for longer; or a repeated Gm-C vamp for longer; or lose one or two of the other chords; or maybe change their order. Gm-Am and back also makes a good G dorian vamp.
    You could also try a G pedal bass under some of the other chords.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    Your chord sequence is Gm, C, Am, Dm.
    I don't get a clear sense of overall tonality. All the chords fit the F major scale, but I don't really get a sense of G dorian from it (or C mixolydian, A phrygian or D aeolian). As there is no F chord, it doesn't really sound like the F major key to me.
    I may be mistaken but I don't hear a B or Bb other than on the Gm chord (at least in the first half or so), which would establish clearer modal sounds on the other 3 chords.

    What I suggest (if you want to investigate modal quality more) is to make more of the Bb on the chords and see what you think. Each chord lasts long enough for its modal identity to be heard - but you need to underline distinctive modal notes to make it plain. (Particularly the Bb on the C, Am and Dm chords. And an E natural in phrases on the Gm would make its "dorian-ness" plainer.)

    As it is, I hear a kind of meandering sequence in sort-of F major. The cycle of 5ths (A-D-G-C) could lead to an F chord, but it doesn't arrive, and the harmonic rhythm is quite slow (2 chords per bar) and regular. Also the C lacks its 7th, which might would suggest an approaching resolution to F more.
    ("Meandering" isn't a bad thing . Just means no clear goal or tonal focus.)

    If you really want it to be G dorian (say), play Gm for longer; or a repeated Gm-C vamp for longer; or lose one or two of the other chords; or maybe change their order. Gm-Am and back also makes a good G dorian vamp.
    You could also try a G pedal bass under some of the other chords.

    you analyzed it pretty well. in that sequence i know for sure i play a right hand B in the second half, which is not in F maj. that's one of those 'out of place' notes. usually if i play that chord sequence i play bB often enough with the right hand, on that recording, i'm not sure, i don't remember. but on the left hand chord sequences only in the Gm.

    i'm not necessarily trying to get a modal sound. or trying to make it sound like a mode. but i figure every song must have a mode. must have a key. but still i'll try that to see what you mean.

    and although i don't completely get your theory as to why it sounds like it resolves to F. i do get the impression it does most definitely, and in fact the sound byte ends on f maj.

    so for me, i wonder, what mode is this? in the chord sequence the F maj chord never appears. though it sounds like it resolves to F maj. so i would by ear think it is F ionian, by how it seems to want to resolve. but by chord sequence, i would guess G dorian. (although maybe that assumption would be wrong, it just seems to me that way because the sequences loops back to the Gm.)

    it's actually the chorus of a song i wrote, minus the melody, of which the verse is most definitely in F maj. so probably in that context it would seem more just F ionian i guess.

    i guess that didn't make such a good modal ear training excersise. it's like a modal misfit.

  8. #23
    Modally Challenged!!!! mattblack850's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood
    that's one of those 'out of place' notes.
    Think of it more as a note 'Outside' the scale or a 'Passing Note' in a Chromatic sequence!

  9. #24
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    according to this, taken from a previous post. it looks like the piece i submitted is G dorian.

    Dorian

    Primary chords = Im-IIm-IV
    Secondary chords = IIIb-Vm-VIIb
    Suspended chords = IV4-VII4
    Chord to avoid = VIm(b5)
    Pedal = IIm-IIIb-IV-Vm-VIIb
    Cadences = IIm-Im IV-Im IIm/3-Im
    Extensions = Im11-IIm7(add11)-IIIbMaj9-IVadd9-Vm11-VIIbMaj9

    Dorian G (relative major F)

    Primary chords = Gm Am C
    Secondary chords = Bb Dm F
    Cadences = Am-Gm. C-Gm. Am-Gm.

    (although technically the chords i usually use for that piece are Gm7 C Am7 Dm7. although in that recording i omitted all the 7s except for the Gm7. I also like to use a A7-Gm7 cadence which i didn't put in the recording. does that make a difference for mode wise?)

  10. #25
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    wow thanks Abminor, that new info you posted is really helpful for me for doing this, and consequently for learning modes. so thanks to that, here's another mode of the day.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  11. #26
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    You're welcome.

    Modal chords progressions is something that I had been looking for a while, browsing every possible stuff I could found on modes in vain. So when I finally got onto that page, I felt like finding the grail (well almost).

  12. #27
    JazzNerd gersdal's Avatar
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    Fingerpikingood,
    Thanks for your examples. I made my examples specifically without a chord progression to avoid 1) the modal chord progression discussion and 2) because it makes it easer to identify the mode you are using. You are free to do the examples as you like, but I just wanted you to know why I did the examples the way I did.

    I relate the mode more the each chord I'm playing than eg JonR is (as far as I understand). That may be that I still have some steps to climb on understanding music, or it may be two different ways of thinking of music. However, I agree with JonR for rapid chord changes where you "feel" the tonal centre in the full progression (say a bar with 3 beats on A and one beat on H repeated N times will feel like A lydian). I do not change mode, scale or anything for such songs. Where is the transition (from new chord and new mode)? I think it is up to the the one taking the solo to decide.

    The last example you added sounds standard minor scale to me (I specifically did not use any instrument to check, as I want this to be an ear-training exercise). However, I was a bit uncertain whether you used a major or minor 7th

    Please add more. This is challanging

  13. #28
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    this was 'intended to be at least' phrygian. but i used one passing note going into the Cm at times, so leading into the root chord, at times. a little bit of a curve ball. this introduction kind of part going into the Cm, this is consistent with G ionian, or G myxolidian. but if i were to have continued further following either one it would turned out badly. everything else is G phrygian. i'll omit curve balls in the future, because or else it's just too tough. maybe later on the curve balls will be better. unless you would prefer otherwise. my chords were Gm - Cm - Fm Fm. and then i'd throw in the 2nd on the tail end of the F to make it sus2. maybe that turned it into a regular minor progression. sorry, i'm not totally used to this mode thing, so sometimes i might mess things up and end up just making a aeolian or ionian progression. although according to the chord charts this should be phrygian, so i'm pretty confident that that's what it is.


    K as far as major or minor 7th. relative to G, the root of the phrygian scale i played, i played not the major 7th ever i don't think. i played the minor 7th though, which in G phrygian terms is the 7th note of the scale. i.e. F.

    but i guess if i played phrygian it would have to be minor 7th, which i guess is why you wondered that, i think.


    I'll try to come up with something different in a different mode... or... maybe the same mode.... nobody knows..... dah da daaaaa.
    Last edited by fingerpikingood; 10-29-2008 at 08:42 PM.

  14. #29
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    K here it is... i have a sneaking suspicion i did it again though, particularly because of the ending. either that, or i guess i threw another curve ball, or maybe a hint rather. anyways, check it out, let me know what you think.
    what's tough is that i'm not exactly sure what my goal is, or if i managed to get the sound of the mode or not. i'm pretty much just basing myself of that chord chart for modes thing.

    i'll try one more like this in another mode if this fails. then, if that fails again, i'll just resort to droning.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  15. #30
    JazzNerd gersdal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood
    this was 'intended to be at least' phrygian. but i used one passing note going into the Cm at times, so leading into the root chord, at times. a little bit of a curve ball. this introduction kind of part going into the Cm, this is consistent with G ionian, or G myxolidian. but if i were to have continued further following either one it would turned out badly. everything else is G phrygian. i'll omit curve balls in the future, because or else it's just too tough. maybe later on the curve balls will be better. unless you would prefer otherwise. my chords were Gm - Cm - Fm Fm.
    Hmm. Not good. I hoped I would have done better The chord progression indicates C-minor (aeolian). With a bit of luck I can get away with blaming it on the chord progression

    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood
    K as far as major or minor 7th. relative to G, the root of the phrygian scale i played, i played not the major 7th ever i don't think. i played the minor 7th though, which in G phrygian terms is the 7th note of the scale. i.e. F.
    Not sure I understand... You played G phrygian over a C-minor progression? That would not make it phrygian. Let me see: G phrygian (G - Ab - Bb - C - D - Eb - F), which in C will be C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C which is the Aeolian scale. Is there anything I do not understand here?

    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood
    but i guess if i played phrygian it would have to be minor 7th, which i guess is why you wondered that, i think.
    Yes, I agree.

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