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Thread: Drum tracks programming

  1. #46
    Registered User Shredmaniac's Avatar
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    As a matter of fact, they have a latin percussion kit. Check this link out: Toontrack Expansions and scroll down.

    Oh, and MIDI drumkits DO exist, check this out :

    http://www.rolandus.com/products/pro...px?ParentId=60

    EDIT : I forgot to mention one thing : yes those demos sound cool.... And you can achieve the same result... if you're a drum programming guru. I posted the link so that you can hear the sound quality (even though the files are mp3).
    Last edited by Shredmaniac; 06-04-2007 at 10:45 AM.

  2. #47
    Since it has internal mixer, I used only one track for drums at the moment.(must take things one at a time).
    Only one midi track or only one output track? Most of the time internal mixer is not of much use... Just make multiple outs in Sonar, and send every part of drum to different output in Sonar, (except maybe Toms, they will be ok alltogether on one output in most of cases) This way you will have more control over drumkit. For instance you can't add reverb just to snare if you have all drums playing on just one stereo output.
    I tried compression of drums then. But I have only experience of using compression with guitar, before recording. I didn't really have clue what I am doing, I managed to limit some heavy snare hits to normal level. Are there any standard/common procedures for drum compression? (Even thou I can live with current improvements for a while, and just explore/experiment).
    You should not need much compression with EZ drummer as it is already treated with EQ and compressor. Comp has two different uses - to make control of dynamics, and other "creative" use, to shape sound. You may try to play with compressor on snare for instance, but you have not that much control as if it would be untreated sound. But it is not the point of EZdrummer anyway. Btw I am not sure that I can imagine situation with EZ where you have to limit hard hits... Are you sure that you don't have double midi notes or something like that?
    For using compresor on drums... well, read about it, anything about working with drums will work. I think you can for instance find a lot of things in old Sound on Sound issues on their web page.
    Btw pay attention that you have more possibilities than just using standard midi notes for drums... When you import midi file, move notes around... you have for instance more different articulations for hihat and snare, etc.

    Can anyone point out the benefits of using EZ drummer instead of programming in via midi in Logic Express?
    You mean can someone point benefits of using EZ drummers midi library insteod programming via midi? It is really confusing question. EZ Drummer is using midi, it is just that you have midi library with it with patterns that you can just drag and drop in logic, and edit like any midi track. Son in your question you say "instead" but there is no instead. EZ drummer is sample library with its own plugin, that has bonus of midi patterns, but you can program drums with it like with any usual sampler.

    Personally, i use the pplugins from garageband for the drums and think they sound reasonable-is EZ drummer's samples much better?
    EZ Drummer is convinient, not necessarily better. It has 16 bit samples, and already EQ-ed and compressed samples so it can't be tweaked too much. And you don't have too much different kits and elements to choose from. So for experienced programmer it can be very limiting. On the other hand for someone that wants results quickly and does not know his way with drums this is easy solution. "Better samples" is relative, for some people real, untreated sound of drum is ugly so they look for pre-fabricated samples, other people don't like when their hands are tied because samples are already threated with EQ and compression. So will EZ drummer work for you depends on your previous knowledge with drums programming and your needs.
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  3. #48
    Ibreathe Follower Kinoble's Avatar
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    Dushan,


    When i meant 'benefits' i just meant between programming things in by hand or using EZ drummer.

    So the benefit for me would be that it has pre-programmed loops,instead of me making my own.

    I am reasonably new to drum programming, but do program in logic and it works reasonably well.

    By quality i meant bitrate, post processing etc.

    Ben

  4. #49
    Registered User Shredmaniac's Avatar
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    As I said, you won't find many jazz/fusion loops in any of the EZDrummer libraries for now. But Toontrack continues to release new expansion kits, and with guys like Morgan Agren behind the -MIDI- drumkit (Agren being a Holdsworth / early Bruford / Wackerman / Univers Zero / Zappa fan), I'm sure they'll release something more fusiony someday. Even though good fusion bands often have a great drummer that'll record killer tracks all by himself

  5. #50
    Ibreathe Follower Kinoble's Avatar
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    Hi Shredmaniac,


    I did notice on the link you gave me there were some great loops in the live video for the recording session of DFH superior?

    The video was just a session but i think the esamples were for the DFH superior pack.

    It sounded good whatever!

    Ben

  6. #51
    Bedroom metalurgist LaughingSkull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushan S
    Only one midi track or only one output track? Most of the time internal mixer is not of much use... Just make multiple outs in Sonar, and send every part of drum to different output in Sonar, (except maybe Toms, they will be ok alltogether on one output in most of cases) This way you will have more control over drumkit. For instance you can't add reverb just to snare if you have all drums playing on just one stereo output..
    Only one output track. I can see the benefit of multiple outs, but I had to try things one at a time. There is so much new to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dushan S
    Btw I am not sure that I can imagine situation with EZ where you have to limit hard hits... Are you sure that you don't have double midi notes or something like that?
    Guilty. I used that to get mure punch in GTPro. Should have edited MIDI track before rendering, but I didn't pay attention. Been guilty of some 3-arm drumming too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dushan S
    Btw pay attention that you have more possibilities than just using standard midi notes for drums... When you import midi file, move notes around... you have for instance more different articulations for hihat and snare, etc.
    That sounds interesting. Must look into that.
    Thanks, Dushan.

  7. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Kinoble
    Dushan,


    When i meant 'benefits' i just meant between programming things in by hand or using EZ drummer.

    So the benefit for me would be that it has pre-programmed loops,instead of me making my own.

    I am reasonably new to drum programming, but do program in logic and it works reasonably well.

    By quality i meant bitrate, post processing etc.

    Ben
    Well what confused me is that you wrote was like you have considered EZ drummer to be some kind of midi device primary, while it is library with plugin and convinience of midi files included. If you just need midi loops you may just buy that - midi loops of style you need, and then use it with any library, you do not need EZ drummer. Quality of samples in EZ drummer is good, even if it is 16 bits, but arguably, it may not work for you, so then you will need to buy expansion pack of your choice etc, and you won't find lation fusion kind of midi files there. So in your case, I would look for midi files separately and use it with drum library that suits your style sound-wise. Anyway, check demos on toontrack site anyway to hear if you like the sound. You may use EZ drummer with any midi library, not just his own.
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  8. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by LaughingSkull
    That sounds interesting. Must look into that.
    Thanks, Dushan.
    You are welcome. There is a pdf with keyboard mappings included, so just take a look. Moving few notes here and there can make pattern sound more real, for instance using different open hat sounds. Nothing complicated, really.
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  9. #54
    Bedroom metalurgist LaughingSkull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushan S
    There is a pdf with keyboard mappings included, so just take a look.
    There are times I wish I would read manuals more often ...

  10. #55
    Modbod UKRuss's Avatar
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    Ben, I think it's personal: Are you interested in programming drums or do you prefer to drop in some patterns and use what's available? Horses for courses again.


    Laughing Skull, I have to agree with Dushan, you should consider multi track drums.

    I use Impulse in Live and it allows for multiple samples in one "instrument" but I can route those samples to different effects sends for example.

    You really need some filter on the kick and some revern on the snare you have to have different tracks to do this, and it makes a difference. Worthwhile doing from day one just to get used to it.

    I don't think there s anythign wrog with using multiple samples for one drum triggerd at the same time, I sometimes build a kick drum out of three different samples, once for the initial contact sound, one for the punch and one for the tone...you can do whatever youi want with midi.


  11. #56
    Ibreathe Follower Kinoble's Avatar
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    Hey Russ,

    Im interested in both at the moment. To be honest, the style of drumming i use for my projects (fusion and jazz) generally tends to be more intricate than the average drum samples, especially the 'rock' ones ive heard with the EZ drummer plugin.

    However, the latin kit sounds quite nice, and i think it would take alot of the time out of programming.

    Its hard to tell without trying the software. Anyone know of a demo version?

    Cheers,

    Ben

  12. #57
    Modbod UKRuss's Avatar
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    Most of these things can be d/l'd as demo version, try scouting out a few Big Fat Drums, EZ Drummer etc.

  13. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Kinoble
    Hey Russ,

    Im interested in both at the moment. To be honest, the style of drumming i use for my projects (fusion and jazz) generally tends to be more intricate than the average drum samples, especially the 'rock' ones ive heard with the EZ drummer plugin.

    However, the latin kit sounds quite nice, and i think it would take alot of the time out of programming.

    Its hard to tell without trying the software. Anyone know of a demo version?

    Cheers,

    Ben
    Btw maybe you can check this...
    http://www.groovemonkee.com
    They have a lot of different packs of midi patterns, some of it in general midi and some for specific drum plugins. (I am not associated with them and I do not own any of their packs, but I see that people on KVR forum are satisfied and that demos are cool) Check for yourself. Maybe you can use some kind of free sampler plugin and samples of your choice, and separate midi patterns?

    Also if you have a lot of question about this maybe you can also try to ask at K-V-R forums for opinions, that is best possible question to ask anything computer-plugins related, I guess.
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  14. #59
    Bedroom metalurgist LaughingSkull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKRuss
    Laughing Skull, I have to agree with Dushan, you should consider multi track drums.
    I hear you. Better start thing righ.

    Quote Originally Posted by UKRuss
    You really need some filter on the kick and some reverb on the snare you have to have different tracks to do this, and it makes a difference. Worthwhile doing from day one just to get used to it.
    Ok, i'm good student. Snare - reverb, cymbals - compression, kick - filter.
    What kind of filter?
    Is there a benefit to EQ kick drum?

    I just found some guidelines for EQing variuos instruments, I'll try to experiment with some of those. I share it with you for comments.

    http://www.orange-fields.com/widepag...asleeprec.html
    http://www.recordingeq.com/EQ/req0400/OctaveEQ.htm
    Last edited by LaughingSkull; 06-05-2007 at 09:07 AM.

  15. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by LaughingSkull
    I hear you. Better start thing righ.



    Ok, i'm good student. Snare - reverb, cymbals - compression, kick - filter.
    What kind of filter?
    Is there a benefit to EQ kick drum?

    I just found some guidelines for EQing variuos instruments, I'll try to experiment with some of those. I share it with you for comments.

    http://www.orange-fields.com/widepag...asleeprec.html
    http://www.recordingeq.com/EQ/req0400/OctaveEQ.htm
    Some of the modern production has very dry snare sound, but you can try different types of reverb, depending on the song. Samples in EZ are already EQ-ed, so you can try to leave them as they are, finish the song structure, and then only when you want to mix song see if you need to make small correction here and there with EQ. When you have raw sound of drums, you can get a lot of different sounds by using EQ and compression, but with already processed sounds, your hands are pretty much tied.
    You don't need to compress hats. Sometimes, there is compression on overheads or in the case when live drummer really hits open hat hard... but you won't probably be in that situation with hihat when it comes to programmed drums. You may try to compress overheads a bit if you use crash cymbals as... (not sure about right word in english) "leading", like instead of hihat in a pattern, it is often case in metal and modern rock, because you want to make that "carpet" sound out of crash cymblas sometimes.
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