Modes( yes i know )

[blackmint]

Now please don't send me to another thread cos ive practically read them all and still could not find the answer to my question!

Anyway, I understand how the modes are constructed in their intervals ie ( D dorian equates to D, E F G A B ), but I have a couple of questions about harmonization in solos/ melodies.

Before anyone starts my recording equipment is not with me but at a friends i cant access at the moment.

Let's work with C major for simplicity.

1) If I am playing a standard C major chord progression with C as a tonal centre, could another guitarist/keyboardist play a melody on top in D dorian, or G mixolydian (sp i know) or any of the modes which contains the notes of C major.

2) Furthermore, in rock/punk music I have seen bands play the equivalent minor scale (so in C, C minor) over a chord progression in C. Does this mean one can play a C dorian, C lydian etc melody over it?

3) How would one deal with borrowed chords in respect to modes? In a certain sense, borrowed chords are from the aeolian which shares the root right? So could not one use borrow chords from other modes such as C dorian?

4) If one can play lets say C Eb G Ab in melody over a C major chord (using the aeloian i have previously mentioned), could one also play get away with playing chords from the aeloian over it? like playing a Ab major over C major or any of the major scale degree chords? How do borrowed chords also come into play? For example, if guitar 1 plays C major, could guitar two play the forementioned riff and then follow it up with a Bb chord and then a C# major/power chord over the the chords? How about over certain scale degrees?


If i really have something wrong in my ideas please tell me. Anyway thanks for reading at least!

[Chim_Chim]

Now please don't send me to another thread cos ive practically read them all and still could not find the answer to my question!

Anyway, I understand how the modes are constructed in their intervals ie ( D dorian equates to D, E F G A B ), but I have a couple of questions about harmonization in solos/ melodies.

Before anyone starts my recording equipment is not with me but at a friends i cant access at the moment.

Let's work with C major for simplicity.

1) If I am playing a standard C major chord progression with C as a tonal centre, could another guitarist/keyboardist play a melody on top in D dorian, or G mixolydian (sp i know) or any of the modes which contains the notes of C major.

If it's in C Ionian then it's in C Ionian.

2) Furthermore, in rock/punk music I have seen bands play the equivalent minor scale (so in C, C minor) over a chord progression in C. Does this mean one can play a C dorian, C lydian etc melody over it?

If it's in C Ionian it's in C Ionian.The C minor pentatonic thing works because it's an established familiar blues and rock sound that's been proven to work.
It gives a very specific and accepted familiar sound.

3) How would one deal with borrowed chords in respect to modes? In a certain sense, borrowed chords are from the aeolian which shares the root right? So could not one use borrow chords from other modes such as C dorian?

I think you could but you have to be careful with it and not overdo it.The point of it is to be subtle and throw in a rare surprise or treat.If it loses it's surprise effect then you've blown it.

4) If one can play lets say C Eb G Ab in melody over a C major chord (using the aeloian i have previously mentioned), could one also play get away with playing chords from the aeloian over it? like playing a Ab major over C major or any of the major scale degree chords? How do borrowed chords also come into play? For example, if guitar 1 plays C major, could guitar two play the forementioned riff and then follow it up with a Bb chord and then a C# major/power chord over the the chords? How about over certain scale degrees?


If i really have something wrong in my ideas please tell me. Anyway thanks for reading at least!

I didn't really follow all of that but then I'm practically sleep walking right now.
You can pretty much do anything if you like the sound or effect of it.But there are alot of proven tricks and it pays to learn them.If you are wanting to learn how harmonized guitar parts work then check out any bands with two or more guitarists that play harmony together and learn their moves.

I'm sure others here will be more insightful than me.

Good luck...

[Poparad]

1) If I am playing a standard C major chord progression with C as a tonal centre, could another guitarist/keyboardist play a melody on top in D dorian, or G mixolydian (sp i know) or any of the modes which contains the notes of C major.

As Chim said, if it's in C major, then it's in C major. The harmony is what determines which mode it is. The only way that someone can be playing D dorian or G mixolydian is if the scale is heard in conjunction with either a D minor for D dorian or G major/G7 chord for G mixolydian. Modes are inseperable from the harmonies they are linked to.

2) Furthermore, in rock/punk music I have seen bands play the equivalent minor scale (so in C, C minor) over a chord progression in C. Does this mean one can play a C dorian, C lydian etc melody over it?

Again, as Chim said, this is not really a modal thing, but harkens to blues playing, in which the minor pentatonic scale is 'forced' over a major chord. There's a long winded reason to why it works, but needless to say, this use is limited to situations where you'd want a 'blues sound,' and whenever it's done, it's going to invoke a 'bluesy' feel to the solo.

3) How would one deal with borrowed chords in respect to modes? In a certain sense, borrowed chords are from the aeolian which shares the root right? So could not one use borrow chords from other modes such as C dorian?

4) If one can play lets say C Eb G Ab in melody over a C major chord (using the aeloian i have previously mentioned), could one also play get away with playing chords from the aeloian over it? like playing a Ab major over C major or any of the major scale degree chords? How do borrowed chords also come into play? For example, if guitar 1 plays C major, could guitar two play the forementioned riff and then follow it up with a Bb chord and then a C# major/power chord over the the chords? How about over certain scale degrees?

This is where modes are actually more useful, but I don't think you're looking at it from the right angle. When the harmonies step outside of the key, the scales need to step out of the key in the same way. When the harmony is inside a key, the scale must be in the key. As Joe Pass (if I remember correctly) said, "When the chord changes, you change."

Superimposing one mode or chord over another mode or chord is a whole other topic, but the end result is usually a somewhat dissonant sound, and not really something you'd use in conjunction with a tonal, key-based chord progression. Superimposion and polytonality are atonal devices, so they don't work in the context of tonal music too well.

Say you have a chord progression that does borrow from the parallel minor. In the case of C major, a progression that would borrow from C minor. The way the modes would then work would be that you would change to the corresponding mode from C minor when the chords come from C minor, and you'd go back to C major when the chords are from C major.

For example, the progression C, Ab, Bb, C. The second two chords are borrowed from C minor, and you'd use the corresponding minor modes, Ab lydian and Bb mixolydian, with them, and then return to C major for the C major chord.

You can extend this idea for very chromatic chord progressions that don't really 'borrow' from other keys, but instead freely move from sound to sound. For example, something like Cmaj7, Ebmaj7, Dm9, Dbmaj7. You could find a scale that contains all the notes of Cmaj7 (probably just the C major scale), a scale for Ebmaj7 (Eb major), Dm9 (D dorian), and Dbmaj7 (Db major). This is where modes really shine, and make navigating difficult, chromatic changes much more simple. The reason why I switched to 7th chords for this is because very chromatic chord progressions often sound too disconnected and random when only triads are used, but with 7th chords and higher, the connections are smoother and more acceptable to the ear.

[Chim_Chim]

As Joe Pass (if I remember correctly) said, "When the chord changes, you change."

ahhh... the words of the virtuoso

[JonR]

Not disagreeing with any of the above, but in case you need another way of saying it...

1) If I am playing a standard C major chord progression with C as a tonal centre, could another guitarist/keyboardist play a melody on top in D dorian, or G mixolydian (sp i know) or any of the modes which contains the notes of C major.

Short answer - Yes.
But it won't sound like D dorian, G mixolydian, etc.
IOW, it makes no sense to say "play a melody on top (of C major) in D dorian" - because the C major tonality makes it C ionian, not D dorian.
If C major is the over-riding key or tonality, then all those 7 notes will have that tonal centre.
There will be passing modal sounds on the various chords (D dorian sound as a Dm chord passes by) - but these are fleeting and musically irrelevant. There is no need to go for a specific pattern you think of as a "D Dorian pattern" when you hit a Dm - and it would have no different (modal) effect from any other pattern anyway.

2) Furthermore, in rock/punk music I have seen bands play the equivalent minor scale (so in C, C minor) over a chord progression in C. Does this mean one can play a C dorian, C lydian etc melody over it?

Possibly. As Chim says, minor pentatonic over a major key (at least, over the I, IV and V chords in a major key) is a familiar blues/rock sound. It works because of the special rules of blues, which is outside conventional western theory (it employs movable pitches, not fixed pitches).

However, the fact that minor pentatonic works suggests that you might be able to add the other 2 notes of a minor mode to fill it out - and dorian would be the obvious choice, because the major 2nd and major 6th will fit the other chords in the key better than the additional notes of aeolian or phrygian.

Also, in jazz, improvisers often choose lydian mode over a (tonic) major chord. This is because the #4 sits better against the chord (esp if it's a maj7) than the diatonic perfect 4th. But they DON'T use the tonic lydian mode over any other chord - because it makes no sense elsewhere.
Eg., in key of C major, they might use C lydian mode on the C(maj7). But they will use the C major scale on all the other chords.

3) How would one deal with borrowed chords in respect to modes? In a certain sense, borrowed chords are from the aeolian which shares the root right? So could not one use borrow chords from other modes such as C dorian?

Yes. But dorian mode offers you no chord that you don't already have from the major key or the parallel minor. In fact it offers you one less than the parallel aeolian does.
Parallel phrygian does offer some extra chords, as does parallel lydian. Worth exploring! (But only as a source for interesting chromatic chord sequences in a major key. Don't start thinking this is anything to do with modal music... )

Eg, the Rolling Stones "As Tears Go By" runs G-A-C-D. The A major could be interpreted as a borrowed lydian chord (from G lydian). Or it could be interpreted as a secondary dominant (V of D), except that the resolution is delayed. The key is G major, whatever. (And I would be amazed if Jagger or Richard had any idea, or cared, about this sort of thing... )

4) If one can play lets say C Eb G Ab in melody over a C major chord (using the aeloian i have previously mentioned), could one also play get away with playing chords from the aeloian over it? like playing a Ab major over C major or any of the major scale degree chords? How do borrowed chords also come into play? For example, if guitar 1 plays C major, could guitar two play the forementioned riff and then follow it up with a Bb chord and then a C# major/power chord over the the chords? How about over certain scale degrees?

Looks like you're talking about composition here, not improvisation. In composition, anything goes. It's your game, you make the rules!
You just have to try these things and see if you like the sound. If not, don't do it.
Generally, one CHORD over another won't work.
Sometimes it does (eg a G chord over a C chord), but only if the upper chord makes suitable extensions on the lower chord. Eg, a G chord played over C adds the maj7 (B) and 9th (D) to the C.
If you play a Bb chord over a C triad, the Bb adds the b7 and 9th (D), but also the 11th (F), which is not going to sit well above the E in the C chord. Miss the E out, tho, and Bb over a C power chord sounds good. But it is basically an extended C chord (C9sus4), not really a Bb chord any more.

When writing a song, my advice is to let the melody lead you, not the chords. With a melody, you just have one note at a time - much easier to decide, note by note, whether it's working or not, whether you like it, and what note(s) ought to come next. (You can sing it to make sure.)
Once you have a melody you like (however bizarre the collection of notes might be), then you can fit chords to it - and make sure the chords follow, support and enhance the melody, without disrupting it or taking over.

When IMPROVISING (over an existing song), you can't generally change the chords. They are given - as is the key (and/or mode(s)) used. Your job is to identify the scale(s) used by the composer, and use the same ones. (Be thankful this choice at least is made for you. Don't give yourself unnecessary work... )
Of course, you can use chromaticism when improving. That's any of the 5 additional notes (outside the given 7), which work as contrast against the key scale, contributing spice or drama. But this is nothing to do with modes.

[Malcolm]

Adding nothing --- Just hitch hiking with short answers.

1) C's seven modes all contain the same notes, the only difference is they start on different notes - same notes help yourself.

2) What's been said about major/minor and then in addition to that. We think in relative modes most of the time, however, there is also parallel modes where everything keeps the same key. I like parallel modes myself, in this case the key stays the same and you get different notes to use.

3) With modes fewer chords changes are better. Vamps work great.

4) Did not follow -- turned into Jell-O. Sorry.
.

[jimc8p]

To get a straight forward modal sound, use progressions/vamps that are completely natural to that mode (don't stray from the 7 related chords).

However, it seems you're more interested in introducing various modal treatments to diatonic major/minor progressions by the use of borrowed chords. The first thing to bear in mind is that all intervals will relate to the root more so than to the passing chords. The next thing to think about is the characteristic notes of parallel modes.

So if the progression is C major, two modes you could easily 'modulate' to are C Lydian and C Mixolydian. (The other two major scales.)

So C Lydian has a #4 in relation to Ionian. Apply that F# to your C major chords to see what Lydian chord choices you may have:

D F# A---D minor becomes D major
B D F#---B diminished becomes B minor
F# A C---F major becomes F# diminished

Throw in D and Bm to your C major progressions to support modulations to the C lydian scale. Also try adding the F# note to other chords.

C Mixolydian has a b7 in relation to Ionian. Apply that Bb to your C major chords to see what Mixolydian chord choices you may have:

G Bb D---G major becomes G minor
Bb D F---B diminished becomes Bb major
E G Bb---E minor becomes E diminished

Throw in B and Gm to your C major progressions to support modulations to the C mixolydian scale. Also try adding the Bb note to other chords....I think you probably get the idea, but I'll do minor for the sake of completeness.

If the progression is Amin, two modes you could easily 'modulate' to are 'A' Dorian and 'A' Phrygian. (The two other minor scales.)

So 'A' Dorian has a #6 in relation to Aeolian. Apply that F# to your A minor chords to see what Dorian chord choices you may have:

D F# A---D minor becomes D major
B D F#---B diminished becomes B minor
F# A C---F major becomes F# diminished

Throw in D and Bm to your A minor progressions to support modulations to the A Dorian scale. Also try adding the F# note to other chords.

'A' phrygian has a b2 in relation to Aeolian. Apply that Bb to your A minor chords to see what Phrygian chord choices you may have:

G Bb D---G major becomes G minor
Bb D F---B diminished becomes Bb major
E G Bb---E minor becomes E diminished

Throw in B and Gm to your A minor progressions to support modulations to the A Phrygian scale. Also try adding the Bb note to other chords....neat how it works out like that i think..

[blackmint]

Thanks all for the answers, shed some light and and helped but of course once you find out more about the mystery more questions always arise

In regards to my 4th question I realised something- that the notes being played in the riff all go to the minor pent over the F chord, which was deemed acceptable, and then the riff just add temporary dissonancy with the F# power chord.

One question that comes to mind- could not one play a mixture than of the minor pent and major pent over a certain progression? lets say C F Dm G, or C F G simply.


and would I deal with a nepolitoan chord? spelling is wrong I know but it would be C# major with the F note in a bass position.

and dominant second chords? Could I play a c mixolydian riff over a G-C-A-D progression? in key C major that is

[blackmint]

To get a straight forward modal sound, use progressions/vamps that are completely natural to that mode (don't stray from the 7 related chords).

However, it seems you're more interested in introducing various modal treatments to diatonic major/minor progressions by the use of borrowed chords. The first thing to bear in mind is that all intervals will relate to the root more so than to the passing chords. The next thing to think about is the characteristic notes of parallel modes.

So if the progression is C major, two modes you could easily 'modulate' to are C Lydian and C Mixolydian. (The other two major scales.)

So C Lydian has a #4 in relation to Ionian. Apply that F# to your C major chords to see what Lydian chord choices you may have:

D F# A---D minor becomes D major
B D F#---B diminished becomes B minor
F# A C---F major becomes F# diminished

Throw in D and Bm to your C major progressions to support modulations to the C lydian scale. Also try adding the F# note to other chords.

C Mixolydian has a b7 in relation to Ionian. Apply that Bb to your C major chords to see what Mixolydian chord choices you may have:

G Bb D---G major becomes G minor
Bb D F---B diminished becomes Bb major
E G Bb---E minor becomes E diminished

Throw in B and Gm to your C major progressions to support modulations to the C mixolydian scale. Also try adding the Bb note to other chords....I think you probably get the idea, but I'll do minor for the sake of completeness.

If the progression is Amin, two modes you could easily 'modulate' to are 'A' Dorian and 'A' Phrygian. (The two other minor scales.)

So 'A' Dorian has a #6 in relation to Aeolian. Apply that F# to your A minor chords to see what Dorian chord choices you may have:

D F# A---D minor becomes D major
B D F#---B diminished becomes B minor
F# A C---F major becomes F# diminished

Throw in D and Bm to your A minor progressions to support modulations to the A Dorian scale. Also try adding the F# note to other chords.

'A' phrygian has a b2 in relation to Aeolian. Apply that Bb to your A minor chords to see what Phrygian chord choices you may have:

G Bb D---G major becomes G minor
Bb D F---B diminished becomes Bb major
E G Bb---E minor becomes E diminished

Throw in B and Gm to your A minor progressions to support modulations to the A Phrygian scale. Also try adding the Bb note to other chords....neat how it works out like that i think..

Thats some pretty nice info

Is there any obligation to return to the C chord when I am playing those chords? I mean in the context of a song.

Could someone explain aswell what vamps are exactly? Its just a chord or two played for an extended peroid of bars right? In these modal vamps though I suppose the melody over them would have to be pertaining to that particular mode though right? for example one would solo Bb mixolydian over Bb if the key was C maj right? (which would be pretty much the same notes as C minor scale.. am I getting there?)

[Chim_Chim]

See,I told you you'd get some good answers.

[blackmint]

I suppose so.

Let's hope you can keep feeding my zillion questions though. There seems to be more coming everytime

Anyway, with altered chords, if i add the sharp 9 on them must it pertain to a future mode I wish to modulate to? How does one use a G7#9 in a key of C progression? what should/can it resolve to?

And when you say to support modulations what do you exactly mean by that?

oh and there are other questions above. Have a crack at you all, you've all done such a decent job thus far

[jimc8p]

Thats some pretty nice info

Is there any obligation to return to the C chord when I am playing those chords? I mean in the context of a song.

Could someone explain aswell what vamps are exactly? Its just a chord or two played for an extended peroid of bars right? In these modal vamps though I suppose the melody over them would have to be pertaining to that particular mode though right?

Thanks..

The I chord is important to continue resolving to, otherwise those intervals will lose their effect and the listener will lose their sense of key. The borrowed chords 'support a modulation' or more simply a change of scale since they contain those anomalous notes.

Vamps are simple chord loops that stress the I chord, and generally direct attention away from diatonic harmony (ionian or aeolian progressions.) Their purpose is basically to create a setting that enables unadulterated modal harmony. The reason you cannot write progressions in precisely the same way as in plain major and minor, is that A) the other modes are not as harmonically strong, and B) we are conditioned by hearing so much Western diatonic harmony.

The simplest of vamps would contain just the I chord. For example, 'A' minor repeated with some 'A' Dorian melody over the top. Vamps get interesting when they contain another chord that uniquely pertains to a certain mode. So, to add to the example, a D major chord uniquely pertains to the 'A' Dorian scale within the 'A' minor spectrum. This will point the ear away from aeolian, towards dorian. Am, D is a vamp that really calls out for 'A' Dorian melodies. The same can obviously be applied to any mode.

Moving a step closer to modal progressions, you can actually use any chord natural to the mode (even if also natural to the parallel maj/min key) The trick is to keep the I chord sounding like the I chord. Easier said than done. Basically, return to the I frequently, play it longer, avoid common sequences of chords found in the relative maj/min. ie V7 cadences etc. So an 'extended vamp' that has some 'progression' with some added chords could be:

Am, Am, Em, D,
Am, Am, C, Bm,
Am, Am, Em, D,
Am, Am, G, F#dim
(This will sound better played as simple triads rather than with the common guitar voicings)

The frequency and recurrence of the root chord forces the listener to hear the rest in relation to it, thus the strong dorian feel.

[JonR]

I suppose so.

Let's hope you can keep feeding my zillion questions though. There seems to be more coming everytime

Anyway, with altered chords, if i add the sharp 9 on them must it pertain to a future mode I wish to modulate to? How does one use a G7#9 in a key of C progression? what should/can it resolve to?

G7#9 is a common altered version of G7 used in jazz in the key of C minor - always resolving to Cm. It can resolve to C major as well.
In jazz, it's assumed the chord will have an altered 5th as well. IOW, "G7#9" is shorthand for "G7#5#9" or "G7b5#9". It can make some very juicy, mellow cadences to C major chord:

G7#9#5 C69
--11----10-------------
--11----10-------------
--10-----9------------
--9-----10-------------
--10------------------
--------------------

The scale used on a G7#9 in this context would be G altered or superlocrian, which equates to Ab melodic minor (7th mode): G-Ab-A#-B-C#-D#-F.

In rock music, 7#9 chords are often used with unaltered 5ths, as blues/funk tonic chords. This is what's known as the "Hendrix" chord. It doesn't actually resolve anywhere, it's just a nice crunchy sound for a tonic chord. (G7#9 in key of G.) Here's Hendrix's favourite E7#9:

-7--
-8--
-7--
-6--
-7--
-0--

Standard scale for this chord would be the simple blues scale (E blues over E7#9). E altered won't work because it has no perfect 5th.

[JonR]

Is there any obligation to return to the C chord when I am playing those chords? I mean in the context of a song.

Not at all. You just have to judge whether it sounds right to do that, or not.
In the key of C major, generally, yes you come back to C eventually. But we're talking about a lot of alterations and substitutions here, modal sounds that may well take us outside of the C major key (at least in jim8cp's examples).

Could someone explain aswell what vamps are exactly? Its just a chord or two played for an extended peroid of bars right? In these modal vamps though I suppose the melody over them would have to be pertaining to that particular mode though right? for example one would solo Bb mixolydian over Bb if the key was C maj right? (which would be pretty much the same notes as C minor scale.. am I getting there?)

Not exactly.
Firstly, Bb mixolydian is not in the key of C major. If you saw a Bb7 chord in the key of C major (they do occur in jazz sequences), yes, you might choose to play Bb mixolydian on it (which you can think of as Eb major or C minor if you like). A more common jazz choice, however, would be Bb lydian dominant, aka mixolydian #4: Bb-C-D-E-F-G-Ab. This is likely to blend better with the chords either side.

Remember in key-based music, it is all about chords linked in progressions. They move from one to another. This is what "functional" harmony means. A chord is not an isolated entity. It has a job to do, which is to link the previous chord to the following one (and harmonise the melody on the way).
This pertains to all chords except the tonic. On the tonic - seeing as it's "settled" - you might be freer to impose other modal sounds on it; like lydian (for a jazz ballad maj7 sound) or mixolydian (for a bluesier sound).

On altered chords - such as the 7#9 I mentioned above - it still has a dominant (V) function; which means it demands resolution to the tonic (I). The alterations are designed for that purpose - to increase the tension prior to resolution.

In MODAL music, things are quite different. You are no longer in a key. Very important to realise this! The harmony is non-functional. (I'm speaking of modal jazz here. In classical convention, things are not quite so clear-cut.)
That means a chord IS an isolated sonority, whose dissonances are there merely to make a nice sound on that chord - not to suggest any kind of resolution. The harmonic is static, with no forward momentum (or at least, nothing very definite or important). A chord could simply be a bunch of random notes from the scale. The scale is what matters. Modes are essentially melodic entities, not harmonic ones. (I'm exaggerating, but it's a useful distinction to make.)
So you could play a G7 chord, with no need to make it resolve to C. That's what G mixolydian mode means. You use the set of notes otherwise known as "the C major scale" - but you are not "in the key of C major", because G is the keynote (or "final" in mode terms).
G mixolydian is more like the G major key, except it has a b7.

(This stuff has all been well explained in other threads and articles, so I'll leave it there... )

[jimc8p]

In MODAL music, things are quite different. You are no longer in a key. Very important to realise this! The harmony is non-functional. (I'm speaking of modal jazz here. In classical convention, things are not quite so clear-cut.)
That means a chord IS an isolated sonority, whose dissonances are there merely to make a nice sound on that chord - not to suggest any kind of resolution. The harmonic is static, with no forward momentum (or at least, nothing very definite or important).

Yeah, important distinction to make. Modal jazz is a completely different animal from the modal vamps and quasi-progressions i was talking about...borrowing chords and scale modulation from earlier on in this thread is moving away from the realms of the 'key' and moving towards jazz theories.