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Thread: where the crap are my tab sites

  1. #46
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    Oh, lookie, a discussion of logic.

    "IF you accept both of those facts, THEN you must accept the fact that TAB isn't a representation of music, and therefore is not a transcription."

    A syllogism that involves the word "if" in a premise is a failed syllogism. The fact that the syllogism has a single premise makes the conclusion a bit unsupported as well. Put down the logic and step away from the table.

    Your attempt at Aristotelian logic fails primarily on your assumption that you have some sort of undeniable axiom in "Do you accept that music MUST have rhythmic information in order to be music? (You have to. If you don't, then you're disputing all dictionaries.)"

    Music indeed has meter. However, a pisspoor means of transcription may not include metric notation. That would be part and parcel to it being "pisspoor." Music and trancsription of music are two different things.

    "It's pure logic. Let A=note. Let B=rhythm. Let C=music. It is a fact that A+B=C. If you remove B from the equation, you don't have C. If you do remove B and claim to still have C, then I question your mental status."

    That isn't logic; it is symbolic math. But that is beside the point. Also beside the point is your argument. We are discussing transcription, you see, and not music.

    Go consult your manuals and try again.

  2. #47
    Registered Axe Offender Romp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricV
    I donīt think that matters to those who made the decision to sue. Whether the TABs are rather tough to read ASCII Tab or Powertab / GP-files that play back a MIDI version of the TAB, or whether the TABs are very accurate or not... who would want to filter that and look for specifics.
    Well, that's the key point here. I would agree that Powertab / GP files that play back a MIDI version of the TAB are illegal and are copyright infringement. You can't play a MIDI file with no rhythmic information.

    I assume by "ASCII TAB" you mean just dashes and numbers, with no rhythmic information. You see, once again, that's not music. It isn't copyrighted. I don't even know if it could be copyrighted, but ASCII TAB (as I'm assuming it's nature to be) doesn't represent music.

    If, however, you add rhythmic information, you're no longer dealing with basic, or I guess ASCII TAB, and you have made a song, it is a transcription, and if that song's copyrighted then you've committed a crime.

    Look, the rhythmic thing isn't a loophole or a nit-pick. The music CANNOT EXIST without it. God, someone please tell me you at least understand what I'm trying to say! I keep saying "TAB isn't music without rhythmic information" and the replies have been, "some TAB has rhythmic information" and "even so, it's still that song." The former argument is irrelevent, and no-one has explained why the latter argument is true, because no-one has asserted that a song is music when there's no rhythmic information.

    I'm pounding on that point because it is the crux of my argument, and it has yet to be refuted. It's basically been ignored, or said that the music is of "lower quality" without rhythmic information, which is patently false. It can't be of lower quality because it's not used to reproduce the song. It's used to communicate one particular facet of the song that doesn't contain copyrighted information.

    YOU might be able to use it reproduce the song using the additional information of rhythmic values in your head, but that's irrelevent because YOU may or may not have that information.

    Someone debate my "Smells Like Teen Spirit" example. I would be sued if I reproduced it with the chords and rhythm the way they are on the recording (and didn't buy a license to do so) but if I significantly changed the rhythm, I could use those chords in that order and not be prosecuted. Someone please debate this. PLEASE.

    The point is that those people think that TABs of copyrighted songs should not be available for free on the internet, no matter who made them.
    "Who made them" is not the issue. The issue is whether or not TAB is a representation of a song. Since songs are made of music and TAB lacks enough information to produce music, I assert that it is not.

    And as I said many times before, a lot of people simply copied TABs from TAB book into PT or GP. Thatīs asking for trouble. And I guess it would be impossible to filter out those specifically, even though some people were fresh (or stupid) enough to even put "from TAB book" into the file description
    Eric
    That's not just asking for trouble, that's downright illegal. Because if it works in PT or GP (which I'm assuming converts TAB into a MIDI file) then it has to have tonal and rhythmic information, and is therefore music, and is therefore protected by copyright.

    How could it be impossible to "filter" those out specifically? As impossible as filtering out child porn from adult port?

  3. #48
    Registered Axe Offender Romp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blutwulf
    Music and trancsription of music are two different things. We are discussing transcription, you see, and not music.

    Go consult your manuals and try again.
    TAB is a transcription, to be sure. But it is NOT a transcription of music. In musical terms, a transcription is "an arrangement of a musical composition for some instrument or voice other than the original."

    My contention is that TAB, with no rhythmic information, isn't a piss-poor transcription of music. It's not a transcription of music at all, because it lacks the information you need to identify a song.

    Here, lemme give you another example. If I put on my website, "HEY GUYZ!! Check out my super awesome transcription of Black by Pearl Jam!" and then below you see:

    ABGDFE#BGGEBbBAGFE#BbBGABBGA

    "NEAT HUH?!?!"

    Did I post the notes? Did I post the chords? Is it even right? There's no way to know because I haven't posted enough information to threaten the copyright - because it's not a copy. A "copy" must reproduce, and basic TAB, lacking the rhythmic information, doesn't reproduce.

    You're making too many assumptions. You're assuming that basic TAB is enough to be able to play the song because you're assuming that most people get TAB for songs they already know and you're assuming that means they already possess the rhythmic information for a copy or transcription to exist.

    But our laws aren't based on assumptions. They're based on fact and what you can prove. And you can't prove that a TAB that lacks rhythmic information is any particular song.

  4. #49
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    My contention is that TAB, with no rhythmic information, isn't a piss-poor transcription of music. It's not a transcription of music at all, because it lacks the information you need to identify a song.
    Even if I don't know what song it is, the tab is still indeed a transcription, albeit a poor one, of music. When you place "Smoke on the Water" atop your tab, it is identified.

    You're right, though. Leave the title off, and post a poor enough transcription as to make the source song unrecognizeable, and sure, it should be indemnified from action. That was your point?

  5. #50
    Registered Axe Offender Romp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blutwulf
    Even if I don't know what song it is, the tab is still indeed a transcription, albeit a poor one, of music. When you place "Smoke on the Water" atop your tab, it is identified.
    That's where we disagree, and frankly, is where you're just wrong my friend. It's identified by you. You were around when Smoke on the Water was written and popular, so you identify it just by the notes. I was born many, many, many many many years, decades really, later than you, but the song was still popular and I identify it.

    But my son, who is due to be born here in the next couple weeks, will probably not be able to identify it when he grows up, even if I teach him how to read TAB. If he happened to hear the song, that would complete the rhythmic information and then he could identify it. But that doesn't mean that the TAB now magically has rhythmic value.

    I will continue to contend that you're making assumptions about TAB that are incorrect. I suspect this is to due to a prejudicial assumption of yours that TAB just sucks. TAB doesn't suck. It's fine for what it is. If, however, you're using TAB to gain access to a copyrighted song transcription that you should really be purchasing, then you're a criminal.

    But that's not what TAB is for. At least you can't prove otherwise, until I add rhythmic information to my TAB.

  6. #51
    Registered User SkinnyDevil's Avatar
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    Oh, lookie, a discussion of logic.
    Now I don't mind that a bit. Some random facts:

    1) Downloading music is not illegal.

    2) Downloading music without paying for it is not illegal.

    3) No one has been sued by the RIAA for downloading music.

    4) If you believe the RIAA has sued for downloading (depsite what you've been told) you are wrong.

    5) Downloading (printing) tab from a tab site is not illegal.

    6) Copyright law (in the US) is a temporary government-granted monopoly.

    7) There are exemptions to the monopoly that are called "Fair Use". Among these is the exemption for education.

    8) There are clear differences between IP (Intellectual Property) and TP (Tangible Property) that exists in the eyes & letter of the law.

    9) Sectors of various industries (like the entertaiment industry, for example) have a history of trying to expand IP protections. These attempts more often than not meet with success.

    10) That expansion has included copyright lifespans that have increased from 14 years to life + 95 years (if memory serves) and the Fair Use Doctrine has been strangled.

    11) To paraphrase something I said a few years ago, "There is a difference between forging (making copies so that a bootlegger can sell them as the originals) and sharing (via cassette, MP3, burned disc, tab etc.). One is a for-profit endeavor, the other is what Thomas Jefferson called 'sharing'."

    These are among the facts we face when discussing tabs or MP3s or tab sites or any other facet of copyright or IP. The problem is, how do we reconcile these facts and what we want to believe? Or should we instead allow these facts to direct what we believe?

    It is my assertion that the discussion of whether tabs are a legitimate transcription or not is interesting, but ultimately irrelevant. Why? Because tabs should be allowed to be shared freely and without restriction. They should only be allowed to be sold by the holder of the right to copy...though the lifespan of that exclusive right should be much closer to the original.
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  7. #52
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    I said: "When you place "Smoke on the Water" atop your tab, it is identified." See? Labelling it. Identifying it. Telling me what it is. No effort on my part, eh?

    If you feel I am incorrect when I assert that "identifying a song makes it identified," all I can do is cede the field and allow you the point. That, and keep you away from sharp objects.

    But that's not what TAB is for. At least you can't prove otherwise, until I add rhythmic information to my TAB.
    Are you saying that I cannot prove that this is "Rain Song" or an attempt at transcription of it?

    RAIN SONG by Led Zeppelin:
    Tuning: DGCGCD
    |--0-----0-0-0-0-0-0-----0-0-0-0-0-0------------0----------------|
    |---7----7-7-7-7-7--6----6-6-6-6-6-6---5-5-3-2--3--3-3-3-----2--|
    |----0---0-0-0-0-0---0---0-0-0-0-0-0---4-4-4-4--3--3-3-3-----2--|
    |-----7--7-7-7-7-7----6--6-6-6-6-6-6---5-5-5-5--3--3-3-3-----2--|
    |------0-0-0-0-0-0-----0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-------------0-0-0-0-0-0--|
    |------------------------------------------------------------------|

    The title is a dead giveaway, isn't it? One doesn't need to have ever heard it.

    Like I said, leave the title off, and write bad enough tab, and you have a point.

  8. #53
    Registered Axe Offender Romp's Avatar
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    Just because you say it's Rain Song doesn't make it Rain Song. You have to provide tonal and rhythmic information. I can play the song you tabbed and, since I don't know how Rain Song goes, I guaran-damned-tee you it ain't gonna sound like Rain Song.

    SkinnyDevil, I agree with your views, but I guess I should've clarified that TAB shouldn't be threatened by the MPA because, by it's own definitions, TAB doesn't violate copyright laws.

  9. #54
    Registered User SkinnyDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romp
    SkinnyDevil, I agree with your views...
    Duh. What sane person wouldn't?

    Hahahaha!
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  10. #55
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    I can play the song you tabbed and, since I don't know how Rain Song goes, I guaran-damned-tee you it ain't gonna sound like Rain Song.
    At a guess, you wouldn't be at the hearing. The copyright holder could recognize it as well as the tab author and the person who sought the tab out. Call me overoptimistic, but I am thinking that the judiciary having jurisdiction would accept that it is a transcription of "Rain Song."

  11. #56
    Registered Axe Offender Romp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blutwulf
    I am thinking that the judiciary having jurisdiction would accept that it is a transcription of "Rain Song."
    They would if they were shortsighted and obtuse. And I'm not ruling that out.

  12. #57
    Ibreathe Music Advisor EricV's Avatar
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    However, it IS possible to include rhythmic information. See the file I attached, and scroll down. There are loads of TAB like that, generated with Powertab, just like this one. It was exported from Powertab, and the program automatically converted note values that way. Complicated to read? Yes. Would someone who works with those kinda TABs be able to learn a song? Without a doubt.
    If the rhythm is left out in those ASCII Tabs, sure it will be hard to play the song the way its supposed to sound without knowing it. But you know what?`I have seen a gazillion Powertabs where people had printed out all notes as 16ths, or had, if youīd add up all the notes in a bar, have about 19 1/2 quarter notes in one bar of 4/4. Thatīs simply a sloppy TAB, or a TAB created by someone who lacks some experience on transcribing music.
    The thing is: if a player decides he wants to leanr the riff of "Breaking The Law", he might go to some TAB website. He sees this: -0-2-3-0-2-3-0-2-3 etc. And will be able to play it, because he knows what rhythm the notes are played in. Does this mean itīs HIM who defines those numbers as the riff? Maybe... possibly.
    But... I would think that the majority of guys doesnīt go to a TAB site to pick just any TAB and play along to it without even knowing the song, but has a certain song in mind, downloads the TAB and learns it. Whether the TAB is a TAB because it only gives him the notes, not the rhythm... well, we can argue on that for eons. But the fact is that the person will probably be able to learn the song from the TAB.
    Eric

    EDIT: Canīt attach that kind of TAB-file, so here is a txt-versioN: http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/eric/black.txt

    Edit 2: In case this doesnt work:

    Intro
    Q=96
    N.C. E5 D A
    4/4
    Gtr I
    Q Q Q Q Q Q H q E S S q E S S
    |-------------|------------||-------2-2-2--------|
    |-------------|------------||o------3-3-3----2-2-|
    |-x--x--x--x--|-x--x-------||-------2-2-2----2-2-|
    |-x--x--x--x--|-x--x-------||--2----0-0-0----2-2-|
    |-x--x--x--x--|-x--x-------||o-2-------------0-0-|
    |-x--x--x--x--|-x--x-------||--0-----------------|


    N.C. E5 D A N.C.
    q Q S S S S S S +S S q E S S q E S S q S S S S S S S S S S E
    |---------3-0---------------|------2-2-2--------|-----------------------------||
    |-2-----------3-0-----------|------3-3-3----2-2-|-2--------------------------o||
    |-2---------------2b4r(2)p0-|------2-2-2----2-2-|-2---------------------------||
    |-2-------------------------|-2----0-0-0----2-2-|-2---------------------------||
    |-0-------------------------|-2-------------0-0-|-0--2-----2-----2-----2-----o||
    |---------------------------|-0-----------------|------4-----5-----6-----7----||

    Duration Legend
    ---------------
    W - whole; H - half; Q - quarter; E - 8th; S - 16th; T - 32nd; X - 64th; a - acciaccatura
    + - note tied to previous; . - note dotted; .. - note double dotted
    Uncapitalized letters represent notes that are staccato (1/2 duration)
    Irregular groupings are notated above the duration line
    Duration letters will always appear directly above the note/fret number it represents the
    duration for. Duration letters with no fret number below them represent rests. Multi-
    bar rests are notated in the form Wxn, where n is the number of bars to rest for. Low
    melody durations appear below the staff


    Last edited by EricV; 12-01-2006 at 08:39 PM.

  13. #58
    Registered Axe Offender Romp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricV
    However, it IS possible to include rhythmic information.
    I'm not disputing that. Here is my official stance:

    "Basic TAB, which includes only string and fret locations of notes, is not a transcription of a musical piece, and therefore is not protected by copyright."

    I just don't think that can be disputed rationally. Most of you guys are thinking in terms of TAB sites and whether they should be taken down. I never used TAB sites; that is to say, I don't know any URLs and wouldn't go to any particular site. If I am working on a cover song and get stuck (e.g. Silent Lucidity by Queensryche) I just go to Google and type "Silent Lucidity Queensryche TAB" and search. 99% of the time, the first hit is a page showing me the fretboard locations I'm stuck on. Most of the time, it's basic TAB with no rhythmic information. In my mind, that's not copyright infringement, based on my stance stated above.

    Now, there is a second, separate debate raging. That one is arguing that TAB, rhythm and all, should be free to everyone everywhere, no matter what. I'm not arguing for that. I'm not arguing against it, either.

    I'm also not saying that you can't include rhythm information in TAB. Of course you can. But if you do, right now, I believe that to be copyrighted, right or wrong.

    I believe that, as the law stands right now, to say that BASIC TAB lacking rhythmic information is protected under copyright is fallacious.

  14. #59
    Ibreathe Music Advisor EricV's Avatar
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    Well, I get your point, and I respect your opinion. But... do you think anyone will listen? Because itīs "grey areas" like these that probably led to those lawyers going for the majority of TAB sites, because if they wanna go case by case, it would be way too much work, and to hard to separate things.
    We can argue on details and possible exceptions for years, but I donīt think it will help much.

  15. #60
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    I was about to break into a discussion of Cartesian Circles, but then I realized that it is perhaps a little adversarial of me to waltz into a bulletin board full of guitar enthusiasts to side up with the RIAA and to diss tab. That, and Romp is a cutie pie.

    While I do indeed have odd hobbies and love goading others on bulletin boards, it just occurred to me that a) this thread is getting overlong and probably boring to those not involved, b) I honestly don't care if anyone downloads all the tab or mp3 files their hard drives can hold, and c) I just did a 5-minute lookabout, and had no problem finding all the tab for which I looked. The stuff is still out there, guys.

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