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live
07-08-2005, 03:10 PM
Hi everybody!

I'm interested in playing in a Big Band or Jazz-Orchestra so I wrote an e-mail to the "Landesjugendjazzorchester NRW" http://www.jjonrw.de/JJO.html in which I asked if there is a place for a guitarist and what they expect from a candidate. Today I got the respond on the mail and I got the info I wanted to have but I'm also official applied for an audition which is probably in february '06.
I didn't want to apply for the orchestra -> just wanted to have information :D But now I'm in there and it will be hard work because I must play from the paper. That's my infirmity...
That's the second part of the audition and the first part is that I have to prepare 2 jazz standards and to be able to improvise on them...

Does anyone have some tips or something which could help me in my prearrangement?

Cheers
live
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silent-storm
07-08-2005, 06:02 PM
Maybe you could give us some background info.

Do you know 50 jazz standards? or have you never played jazz in your life?

Do you have some sight reading ability? or do you not know how to read music at all?

The advice will vary greatly depending on your current level.

A year is a long time if you aren't starting from scratch.

live
07-08-2005, 06:30 PM
Hey silent-storm!
thx for your answer.

I have played a little jazz before building some II-V-I Progressions etc. and I wanted to learn more by starting in a big band and the problem is that there are no big bands for beginners or something...

I harmonized Autumn Leaves and Black Orpheus with my teacher and my sight reading ability is not very mentionable... I know how to read music - there is no problem but I'm slow because I can't associate the notes with the fretboard. So I try to play 30 minutes a day just sight reading...

Does anyone know a good Jazz Real Book or any other stuff I could buy for my practice???

hope i could give you enough information
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Poparad
07-08-2005, 08:51 PM
Check out Mel Bay's website (melbay.com) for a collection of solo jazz guitar arrangemnets. This will get you started on some good sounding pieces and how to approach making your own arrangements, if you don't decide to use those.

Then, hit up Jamey Aebersold (jazzbooks.com) for a playalong cd that has some of the solo tunes you're learning. There are over 100 volumes available, so there's a good chance that if the tune is a common standard you're working on, you can get a playalong. Use this to practice improvising over.

And for reading, if you don't already have the Real Book, get one. Hal Leonard now publishes a legal version that's cheap and easy to get a copy of. Pick some tunes (like the ones in the solo guitar book or the Aebersold playalong) and practice reading through the melody and practice comping chords to it, as comping is a big part of big band work.

When it comes to sight reading, read anything and everything. Check out a library for any kind of music book and just read the examples out of there. It doesn't have to be music for guitar, and just work through that.

live
07-08-2005, 08:56 PM
thank you very much! that helps a lot...

A friend told me the Hal Leonard Book is not very good. I'd prefer something like this:

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=12811&item=4744256047&rd=1&ssPageName=WD4V



I'll go on with my practice now ;-p
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silent-storm
07-09-2005, 02:25 AM
The 6th edition of 'The New Real Book' is all legal and has all the 'standard' standards in it. I would advise getting that instead of picking up one that you aren't too familiar with because I've seen some that have a list of songs that nobody plays at all. Plus I believe they went and got direct info from the composers themselves whenever possible in order to get the right changes because some real books have absolutely terrible changes...even mistakes in the melody which I can't see how that can possibly happen.

As for reading, here's my advice. Now this would change your playing completely and would take a great deal of discipline, but simply don't play another note on the guitar when you are playing single notes without naming the note. Reading ability and fretboard knowledge go hand in hand and you'll feel like a beginer for a couple of weeks because you will have to say each note under your breath and will be going dead slow, but once you got it down at sight and can start just saying it in your head, then things will start rolling and you'll never regret it. Somehow I manage to reinvent my entire playing atleast once a year and I did this last year...best choice I ever made.

Aebersolds were mentioned and I have quite a number, but honestly I never use them anymore. A good real book and the backing track program 'band in a box' is all you need. Band in a box was created for jazz backing tracks so they actually sound half decent, but pretty terrible for every other style on the program. A very good jazz practice tool.

I'll post more stuff when it comes to me.

ChrisJ
07-09-2005, 12:10 PM
Are they really going to make you site read a big band chart? I used to play in a big band and take it from me, the charts are the worst. First of all they are very, very long because the orchestration makes simple repeats and codas impossible. Also, whoever does the arrangement is most likely not a guitarist so the part you have to read usually is doubling another instrument's line (such as a sax or trumpet). Usually, you get a week and a few rehearsals to work things out.

If I have any advice, try to get hold of some real big band charts and listen to a lot of the music. Bob Minzer big band for example.

-CJ

live
07-09-2005, 03:34 PM
Hi silent-storm! Hi ChrisJ! First of all I want to thank you again for your will to help - I know there are probably not so much ways to help me but I think you found some of them! More stuff and tips are welcome everytime!!!




Plus I believe they went and got direct info from the composers themselves whenever possible in order to get the right changes because some real books have absolutely terrible changes...even mistakes in the melody which I can't see how that can possibly happen.


Yeah, I heard of it, unbelievable!!!



As for reading, here's my advice. Now this would change your playing completely and would take a great deal of discipline, but simply don't play another note on the guitar when you are playing single notes without naming the note.Reading ability and fretboard knowledge go hand in hand and you'll feel like a beginer for a couple of weeks because you will have to say each note under your breath and will be going dead slow, but once you got it down at sight and can start just saying it in your head, then things will start rolling and you'll never regret it. Somehow I manage to reinvent my entire playing atleast once a year and I did this last year...best choice I ever made.


Ok, I'll try this! Sounds like a bunch of hard work but that's the only way to learn it really?!



Aebersolds were mentioned and I have quite a number, but honestly I never use them anymore. A good real book and the backing track program 'band in a box' is all you need. Band in a box was created for jazz backing tracks so they actually sound half decent, but pretty terrible for every other style on the program. A very good jazz practice tool.


Ok, I'll try to get the program and a Real Book that seems to be authentic to me... I've got some copies out of the Berklee books from "William G. Leavitt" which I use to get better in sight reading. The "Aebersolds" could be a good addition to my practice but I won't buy those tools before I got the important stuff I listed...



Are they really going to make you site read a big band chart?


Yes. This is what I got in the mail! It's part of the audition



Also, whoever does the arrangement is most likely not a guitarist so the part you have to read usually is doubling another instrument's line (such as a sax or trumpet). Usually, you get a week and a few rehearsals to work things out.


Yeah, that's where I can show how good I'm really. But I think I will prepare it all good. But in the audition I must read it...
The most jazz-arrangements(unless most let me say ALL?!) do have chords which can be played by the guitarist or even special melodies or melody-phrases!!!



If I have any advice, try to get hold of some real big band charts and listen to a lot of the music. Bob Minzer big band for example.


Ok that's a nice tip! Thank you...



Cheerz, live
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silent-storm
07-09-2005, 06:22 PM
Ok, I'll try this! Sounds like a bunch of hard work but that's the only way to learn it really?!

No, there's always other ways to go about doing things. I just think if that's a high priority for you, I can't really think of a faster way to go about it. It's just a way to force yourself to learn them. You could probably have it down so you don't have to say the notes or even really think about them anymore within a month...will probably take a little longer before your mind can go as fast as your fingers can...depends how much you practice.

Everything is a bunch of hard work.

SeattleRuss
07-09-2005, 06:59 PM
live wrote:

thank you very much! that helps a lot...

A friend told me the Hal Leonard Book is not very good. I'd prefer something like this:

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ssPageName=WD4V



I'll go on with my practice now ;-p

I clicked on that link and I would NOT recommend that book for you since it is written in Bb. It's written for Tenor sax and trumpet players. The guitar is a "C" instrument.

live
07-09-2005, 09:40 PM
@SeattleRuss:

Thank you! I know this - I didn't want to buy THIS specific book on ebay since there are other editions of the same book in A4 and A5 (for instruments with other tunings).
So I'd buy the C Edition in A4 but I first thought Real Books are for every instrument since I saw those ones which are for Tenor sax or whatever... So must I buy one for guitar or one "for any instrument"?

My orientation were the two standards I just know: "Autumn Leaves" and "Black Orpheus" which are both included in this book but not in the Hal Leonard and many other Real Book publications... But I don't want to copy the illegal edition from my guitar teacher which includes almost everything since it has more than 800 pages and you need 1h for 100 pages in front of the copier - this counts up to 8hours....8hours I could better spend with practising! ;-)

I repeat: More answers are still welcome!!!


live
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live
07-10-2005, 07:32 PM
Tomorrow I'll go first to the library where I'll search for the following books


1. A Modern Method For Guitar 1,2,3 Complete (William Leavitt)
2. Harmonic Experience: Tonal Harmony from Its Natural Origins to Its Modern
Expression (W.A. Mathieu)
3. The Real Book - Volume 1: Sixth Edition (Hal Leonard Corp.)


I'll read some sections and if it's good I'll borrow or even buy it... That's my mission ;-)
Band In A Box will be in my hands in a few days because my guitar teacher lends it to me...


Still searching for more HELP!

Cheers,
live


P.S. My sight-reading abilities take shape from day to day!(hope that was no "german- english"...)
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silent-storm
07-10-2005, 08:24 PM
If you're looking for books anything by Jerry Bergonzi or Mick Goodrick is absolutely golden. They have a way of explaining things so you can put it into your playing right away...every aspiring jazz guitarist should own all their books...if you can afford it of course.

Mick Goodrick's 'The Advancing Guitarist' is a great place to start, or Bergonzi's 1st book in his improv series.

Although this is comming from a guy that has dropped a lot of cash on books...method books may not be suited for your learning style.

live
07-10-2005, 09:21 PM
Ok thank you! I accepted your advice. I made a list with products I want to look for in the library and put Mick Goodrick's book on it...




Although this is comming from a guy that has dropped a lot of cash on books...method books may not be suited for your learning style.

Sorry, can't get your point! What is the difference between method books and books like you told me about?!?! Why are (or could they be) they not suited for my learning style?

live
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silent-storm
07-11-2005, 12:43 AM
I meant books in general

some people work well with books, others with transcriptions, others need a teacher for everything, others just experiment on their own with limited resources.

books can be difficult in that we often feel as though it is necessary to digest them from front to back, which isn't necessarily the point. Just dabble in what interests you at the moment, then shelve it for a couple months or years, then come back to it when you want to explore some more. I for one am usually quite satisfied with just learning how the author approaches the guitar rather then actually learning specifics. Like when I was watching my john mclaughlin instructional DVD the other day and I realized John Mclaughlin relates all his modes back to the parent major scale, rather then thinking of them as individual scales. A pretty basic example, but I find that a lot more interesting then any lick he might have given.

live
07-12-2005, 01:43 PM
I've been in the library today - here are my results:

I borrowed
- a Bob Mintzer CD
- 2 John Scofield Instrucitonal Videos
- some jazz theory books and jazzguitar books for practical work...
+ other things


In the musicshop they only had some of the "new real books" which were all trash...
Perhaps they can get the 6th edition you have mentioned (btw: is it this one http://www.playjazz.com/FBO076.html ???) to let me have a look on it. In the web it looks more attractive because it's cheaper than most of the others and has (like you said) all of the 'standard' standards (if we mean the same book -> let me know!)...


So far...
live
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silent-storm
07-13-2005, 08:45 AM
that's the one!

live
07-30-2005, 09:57 AM
I have this Real Book for a few days now and I'm very satisfied with it! Just turning on Band In A Box and choosing a site in this book and starting to play is a nice excercise! I want to have a look at this book, too: "Forward Motion: From Bach to Bebop - A Corrective Approach to Jazz Phrasing" by Hal Galper -> Any recommend on it?
Is "A Modern Method For Guitar Vol. 1,2,3 Complete" good to practice sight reading? (There's a book called "Reading Studies For Guitar" Or "Advanced Reading Studies For Guitar", too...) Any advices?

Thanks in advance! Cheers

live
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silent-storm
07-31-2005, 06:50 AM
The sight reading really depends on your level.

For beginer to intermediate anything works that has notes on it.

For advanced I would recommend either the Charlie Parker Omnibook or Jerry Bergonzi's Thesaurus of Intervallic Melodies, which also doubles as an advanced ear training book amoung other things.

live
08-02-2005, 09:13 PM
Hey silent, thx again!


I use the standards for sight reading, too! But dunno if it's enough for that...thought that more stuff couldn't hurt me... Improving the jazz-skills is very much fun for me but can anyone share an arrangement of a standard and explain his reasons for this and that(+improvisation would be amazing...)? would be great help for me! And I'm welcome for every kind of tips about improvisation and fretboard orientation. That's all I'm learning at the moment. Technique etc. too but not so much. What I really work on is:

improvisation (Here I'm still not sure how I can work better than now - just playing
over jamtracks etc.)
sightreading
chordvoicings
rhythmicity
and some jazz licks i can find
Jazz Standards (has a little bit of everything else in it...)

More tips how i can approach to that stuff? (The Bebop-Scale for example, should I absorb it or first go on with the jazz stuff and my present knowledge - if the answer is pro bebop-scale: how can I get its feeling?)

Thanks in advance
live
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live
08-12-2005, 01:23 PM
I got the "Modern Method For Guitar" Books as 3 seperate books on ebay! I can recommend this books to everyone who wants to improve his sight reading...

In my last post I asked some unanswered questions ?!


How could the Orchestra-Leaders want me to play the standards? Just the Chords, just the Melody or both??? With the standards I've had a look at yet I tried to play first the melody and the chords alone and then I transcribed a version in which the chords include the melody-tones in their soprano-tones... How can I implement the improvisation at best? When I play alone it's hard, as I think... and how should I come back to my real arrangement?

Thank you,
live
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Maarten
08-13-2005, 11:33 AM
Hi Live,

Just a quick note on bebop scales. They are a very great tool if you understand how they work:

In jazz you often play lines that are made up from 8th notes. In such a line it often sounds good if the chord tones fall on the beat. So if you would start to play on the 1st beat your line could be: chord tone - passing tone - ct - pt - ct - pt - ct - pt . Each of the four beats (of a 4/4 measure) gets a chord tone, in between come passing tones.
The problem with most scales is that the are made up from 7 tones (c maj = c d e f g a b), while there are 8 8th notes in a measure. So just following the scale will not lead to the ct - pt pattern because you're short on 1 tone. Other problems also arise from this fact:
If you want to play an C major scale over a C6 chord (standards version of a C chord) and you want to have a chord tone on each beat, if you start a descending line from c you'd get C-b-A-g-F-e-D-c. F and D should be off-beat notes.

So in short, the fact that all those common used scales only have 7 notescauses a lot of trouble. Bebop scales are versions of these common scales with 1 passing tone added so you get an 8 note scale. Therefore, if you play a bebop scale in 8th notes and you start on a chord tone your lines will always have a strong harmonic fundament.

The most used bebop scales are

major: c d e f g g# a b = chord tones of a C6 chord on the beat.

minor: c d eb f g ab bb b = chord tones of Cm7 on the beat.

minor (dorian): c d eb f g g# a bb = chord tones of Cm6 on the beat.
(You can mix up those two minor scales to your own liking depending on which minor-chord sound you want.)

dominant: c d e f g a bb b = C7 sound.

I hope this is clear, feel free to ask if you have any questions.

live
08-14-2005, 02:10 PM
Thank you Maarten!
So there can be '#'s and 'b's in the same bebop-scale?!?! because the scale formulas look like this:

major: 1 2 3 4 5 #5 6 7
minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 7
dominant: 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7



minor (dorian): c d eb f g g# a bb = chord tones of Cm6 on the beat.
(You can mix up those two minor scales to your own liking depending on which minor-chord sound you want.)


What do you mean, saying this? Can I add the 8th note where I need it to be?

(+ minor(dorian)-scale formula is when I got it right): 1 2 b3 4 5 #5 6 b7


thanks
live
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Maarten
08-15-2005, 11:57 AM
Since the added notes are passing tones they will be described with # when ascending and b when descending, but that's just details. Remember that these accidentals don't say anything about the key your in so it's not important which one you use.

You can put the extra note anywhere you want, but you have to realise that where you place it decides which notes will fall on the beat and thus whcih chord-sound you are implying:

For a minor doriansound, as you wrote, you can use : 1 2 b3 4 5 #5 6 b7 --> notes on the beat are 1 b3 5 6 = min6 sound
For a natural minor sound: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 7 --> notes on the beat are 1 b3 5 b7 = min7 sound.

You can also get the same effect by, instead of adding a new note, taking a little sidestep so that the desired notes fall on the beat:

Let's say you want a Minor-major7 sound and end your line on the octave: 1 b3 5 7 8 would be the notes you want on the beat. If you use the harmonic minor scale you can just play it upto the 7 to get the first 4 tones: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 8. But the 8 is a problem beacause it will fall off-beat. You also can't turn the scale into a bebop scale because there is no more room between 7 and 8 to add a note.
The thing to play here would (could) be 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 9 8. So I added a note from above the 8 in between the 7 and 8 to make them both fall on the beat.

I hope this is clear, I'm just trying to explain how you can make your lines stronger harmonically by deliberately placing chord tones on the beat, and how you can use some tricks for altering your usual scales so this happens almost automatically.