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steve0192
07-06-2005, 09:57 PM
Its about time I contributed something to this forum, so I thought I finish the major modes where UKRuss left off. Here's the final one, the Locrian.

Now this one's a wierdo!

It's based on the 7th note of the major scale. So in C major that would be the scale going from B to B.

The backing track for this one is actually in the key of E Locrian. Which means the scale is made of E, F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E. Notice that there's a Bb rather than a B in there.

The most striking feature of the Locrian mode is that the Tonic chord is diminished. This gives it it's characteristic flavour, and emphasizes the diminished 5th interval.

The harmonic structure of the backing track is dead easy.

There's an E bass driving throughout the track. On top of that, I'm alternating Bb maj 7, then E dim chords.

I certainly had fun trying to fit a solo on the top of it, and that b5 caught me out on more than one occasion...

See how you get on! :)

Steve

ps. Extra credit will be given for using wacky sounds (including toy rayguns)! ;)

Factor
07-06-2005, 10:07 PM
Awesome backingtrack! Gotsta love this!

You've really got that industrial feel there :) I'm looking forward to playing over this one hehe :p

Caffeinated Cat
07-06-2005, 10:50 PM
I love that backing track as well (haven't listened to your solo yet). Who knows, maybe I'll get the equipment (and guts) to post a solo :D

satch_master
07-07-2005, 01:24 AM
yay! im really bored at home today. This will keep my busy for a while and make me get off my butt and pick up my guitar. Great backing and solo!

steve0192
07-07-2005, 08:45 PM
Thanks guys!

I'm glad you like it. It was good fun to do, I remember I just kept fattening up that pounding bass and it just seemed to sound better and better :D (atleast to my ears).

Anyway I'm very much looking forward to hearing what other people can do to it.

Regards

Steve

satch_master
07-08-2005, 02:31 AM
yeh i love that nice low E on the bass.

Ive attemted soloing over it. I got some nice ideas. I tended to favour alot of legato playing in this piece, i AP alot more but this solo just needs extreme satch style legato runs. Im having trouble creating a nice, repeating melody,motif or theme however. Once i got one going and im happy with my playing ill upload it. I don't wanna upload anything half assed or mediocre like i did in the past. So i promise as soon as i get a good idea down i will upload it. I can run up and down the scale with legato runs for days but it gets old really quick and i want to do something more creative.

UKRuss
07-09-2005, 08:31 PM
Nicely done Steve, I shall be havin' a bash at this sir.:D

UKRuss
07-10-2005, 08:43 AM
Fear the locrian:eek:

Some E Locrian, some G min pent with some stretch licks from EricV/Kotzen, but not at full speed of course. Some cheap arps.

Mmuch enjoyed! Cheers Steve!:D

steve0192
07-10-2005, 09:16 PM
Hi Russ,

The further you got into the track the more you seemed to warm up to it. I thought you found some good intervals in there. Were you deliberately trying to avoid being too linear?

I also particularly liked the little chromatic thing around 2:25.

Steve

UKRuss
07-10-2005, 09:24 PM
Cheers Steve, wasn't a conscious thing with the non-linear stuff, just trying to mix up the ideas a bit i guess.:D

satch_master
07-11-2005, 07:41 AM
here is my locrian noodle!
kinda satchy, pick tapping and lots of legato runs.
I also managed to get a melody down this time :D
not bad all in all. I actually struggled to solo for 4 mins!
Steve and Russ, nothing short of great. :D
Steve, great sustain, and you got some serious speed, watch out everyone, those are some deadly runs in there.
russ, yours is kinda bluesy almost at times, but its really nice and different, love the ending.

KEEP EM COMIN' GUYS.

Apple-Joe
07-12-2005, 04:51 PM
Steve, very good. I like the backing track, and your solo is fantastic. In the beginning it reminded me of Janick Gers of Iron Maiden, but your technique sounds a little more structured to be honest. The similarity was more about the tone, note choice and originality. Further on, you delivered a few runs which I've never heard Janick Gers do. I haven't been playing much lateley, maybe due to the great weather, however, listening to this alternative musical pieces made me want to play again. I'll see what I'm able to to the next couple of days, let's hope for a day or two of rain.

UKRuss: I noticed your tone immediately. Characteristic. A bit like the Dorian take. I have noticed several interesting leads before the solo has played for a minute. Yes, a little bluesy, but that just creates variation, as you also seem to hit the Locrian notes. Now the song is halway through, and what stands out is your ability of creating an atmosphere together with the backing track, and your great sense of vibrato. I especially like what I hear NOW (2:50->) - very interesting. 3:15 and onwards also had a few moments. Sounded diminished or augmented. Different and great.

satch: Original atmosphere in the beginning. Maybe the guitar volume is a little loud - I like to hear the backing track too. Anyway, I like the laidback style of this solo, you don't seem to stress it, which is good. That said, you provide several interesting lead runds every now and then, which shows your technical abilities (Alternate picking, I presume). And suddenly, the track was over.

A general word; I have a feeling it's difficult to create a solo over a Locrian backing track. Just a presumption, but I'll find out soon, anyway.

UKRuss
07-12-2005, 05:39 PM
[QUOTE=Apple-Joe]UKRuss: I noticed your tone immediately. Characteristic.UNQUOTE]

I recall we had a thread not so long ago about tone and it coming from the player rather than the equipment. This seems to underline that fact nicely. I used two completely different guitars for the Dorian take and this take and yet Joe mentions my tone straight off. Off topic but I thought I'd mention it.

Thanks for the kind words too!:D

Haven't heard yours yet Satch! Lookin' forward to it.

steve0192
07-12-2005, 07:00 PM
Hi satch_master,

Good job.. You're not afraid to experiment with textures are you. :)

I'm not surprised that you struggled to keep it going for the 4 mins. It's a wierd mode that kind of stops a person from using all the usual riffs.

I was listening to it in the light of your previous post about wanting to improve your bends and vibrato. I think its great that you're able to be critical with yourself, and if you start to get those kinds of techniques nailed you'll make a huge step forward in terms of your musical output.

Regards

Steve

steve0192
07-12-2005, 07:05 PM
Steve, very good. I like the backing track, and your solo is fantastic. In the beginning it reminded me of Janick Gers of Iron Maiden, but your technique sounds a little more structured to be honest.

Hey, thanks very much for the complement :) I'll have to dig some Maiden out and have a listen. I have never heard them enough to be able to be able to distinguish one guitarist from another.


A general word; I have a feeling it's difficult to create a solo over a Locrian backing track. Just a presumption, but I'll find out soon, anyway.
:) It does present a few challenges, but there'd be no fun if it were too easy!

Steve

satch_master
07-13-2005, 01:13 AM
yeh, thanks for the feedback guys. very analyitical Apple joe, thats a good thing. I need some real feedback from other ears. I wanna hear your playing aswell. I think i have came to realise that a good solo from a better solo has a melody throughout it, Satch does it all the time in his songs. Like it is great to go off with full blown legato runs up and down but its boring for the listener especially if it the same thing over and over. So i tryed to develop a simple melody, go off in to some legato and pick tapping and then come back to the melody. Like obviously , every solo doesnt need a melody, especially is it is in a song, cause the vocals will provide the melody but in this case of an extended instrumental improvisation you need a melody to fill the gaps and keep interest. Well im learning, lol. and i always proof read before i post now, don't want typos everywere, not very nice.

steve0192
07-24-2005, 10:23 PM
Here's something you might find interesting,

Again a backing track in E, again a similar feel and driving beat to the Locrian, but this time using the Dorian Mode. It just shows how dark the Locrian mode is in comparison.

Have fun with it.

Steve

EricV
07-24-2005, 11:26 PM
Hey Steve

very nice backing track, and great playing by all. Once I heard the backing track, I decided to have some fun with it, and take a more... well, amusing approach instead of focussing on the beauty of the locrian mode.
The backing track reminded me very much of the "Engines Of Creation" album, so I decided to use some wacky sounds and tricks over the track ( I assume Schooligo is gonna kill me for that... =) )
So I plugged in the Ibanez, dialed in some strange sound, and used a Wah and a whammy pedal-sound and recorded the first take of me playing whatever came to my mind. There are a few breaks in there, which was caused by me switching the sounds ( didnīt have the unit on the floor, but on the desk, so I had to switch by hand ).
The sounds are not qute balanced, so you notice right away when I switch... but then again, this is supposed to be some kind of a silly approach, so I hope anyone else finds this amusing... =)

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/eric/locri-ev.mp3
Eric

steve0192
07-25-2005, 07:24 AM
Awesome Eric!

I'm gonna have to get my whammy pedal out and annoy the neighbours with it tonight!

Steve

EricV
07-25-2005, 08:22 AM
Great, Steve, hereīs how to do it: *evilgrin* Turn up the volume and the gain. Set the whammy pedal to 2 octaves up. Hit the natural harmonics at the 3rd or 14th fret ( those really high ones ). Pull up on the bar. Slowly, with a evil grin, raise the pitch with the pedal... up 2 octaves
I know this because that is what Satriani did at the end of his solo when I saw him live in Philly a while ago. It was really loud at the show, PA cranked up, so when he did that one, I felt a stinging pain going down my spine =)
Eric

satch_master
07-25-2005, 09:35 AM
Wow! Awesome playing Eric V, you can really manipulate that trem can't you? Suberb tone aswell. Sounds like something experimental Vai would do.

EricV
07-25-2005, 10:52 AM
Hey man, thanks a lot, glad you liked it. The whammy bar thing is something I picked up by listening to Satriani a lot ( guess thatīs not a surprise ).
There is this part in "New Blues" where he starts to play that slow, majestic melody, and he uses those "wang bar dips"... depressing the bar a bit, hammering onto a note, slowly releasing the bar, giving it that "smooth slide into the note" sound.
As I said, the backing reminded me of EOC, so I tried to get into that wacky experimental mode, even though the take shouldnt be taken too seriously =)
Thanks for your kind words
Eric

EricV
07-25-2005, 11:06 AM
...and just to make it a bit more obvious what I am talking about, I did a quick video of me using a Wah and that "dip technique"
The effect sounds a bit exaggerated here, but usually works nice in a solo or improv.
http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/eric/dip.avi
Eric

Schooligo
07-25-2005, 04:22 PM
By EricV:

so I decided to use some wacky sounds and tricks over the track ( I assume Schooligo is gonna kill me for that... =) )

LOL,

He won't "kill you" for that, but he might "kill you" if you use a toy raygun!! :D

steve0192
07-25-2005, 07:44 PM
By EricV:


LOL,

He won't "kill you" for that, but he might "kill you" if you use a toy raygun!! :D


I think you two need to re-read the accompanying notes to the jam track.. :D

Apple-Joe
07-26-2005, 04:30 PM
Here's something you might find interesting,

Again a backing track in E, again a similar feel and driving beat to the Locrian, but this time using the Dorian Mode. It just shows how dark the Locrian mode is in comparison.

Have fun with it.

Steve

That's really impressive. One of the better tracks I've heard in recent time. Great defining of the atmosphere and the track itself is very refreshing. I liked the slow beginning notes, but suddenly you exploded. Then, you varied the speed in your playing again. Very good, truly. Steve, was it you who didn't use a pick when playing?

Apple-Joe
07-26-2005, 04:36 PM
Hey Steve

very nice backing track, and great playing by all. Once I heard the backing track, I decided to have some fun with it, and take a more... well, amusing approach instead of focussing on the beauty of the locrian mode.
The backing track reminded me very much of the "Engines Of Creation" album, so I decided to use some wacky sounds and tricks over the track ( I assume Schooligo is gonna kill me for that... =) )
So I plugged in the Ibanez, dialed in some strange sound, and used a Wah and a whammy pedal-sound and recorded the first take of me playing whatever came to my mind. There are a few breaks in there, which was caused by me switching the sounds ( didnīt have the unit on the floor, but on the desk, so I had to switch by hand ).
The sounds are not qute balanced, so you notice right away when I switch... but then again, this is supposed to be some kind of a silly approach, so I hope anyone else finds this amusing... =)

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/eric/locri-ev.mp3
Eric

You seem to know how to produce the sounds you want to. I noticed the sounds in the beginning, then I have to admit I lost focus a little furhter into the song, then I noticed a great part in the outro. Fast, stable playing - very professional. Another example of how I want to sound. I can make good phrases using the Pentatonic, and maybe add a Aeolian note (or notes from another mode) here and there, but I am certainly not able to play like you did in the end part there. I admire it, because I tend to sound Pentatonic no matter what I do. If I concentrate, of course, I can be creative and come up with something. But when improvising, most of the time, the outcome will be very Pentatonic. The fact that this piece was Locrian makes it even more impressive. I'm gonna listen one more time, and pay attention, especially to the ending part, and try to steal some hints, and motivation.

EDIT: I am listening to all the tracks over again. I have to say that these Locrian tracks makes me want to play. The mode is a bit different, and not so popular. Maybe that's why it sounds so interesting, and provides motivation. You're not used to it, so it grabs your attention. Maybe I'll try to record a piece myself soon, but I have a lot of work to do, if I'm gonna compete with the already uploaded tracks. I think I got to do my best using creativity, and hope it benefits me. For the technical aspest, I might be lost already, but the important thing is; this mode inspires me greatly these days!

One final question. Steve, when I think about it now, I am almost positive it was you who said you played without a pick. I think I recognize it in your tracks too, the sound is so... defined. I might have asked already, a while ago, but could you give a few words about your fingerstyle technique?

How's your approach? Especially for those deadly runs, I just don't understand. I'm not able to play like that myself at this point - WITH a pick. Could you explain - short but precise - the main ideas behind your technique? Just you give you an example. In your last track around 2:38 there was a fast part which impressed me a lot. And that's just one of the many parts. What's going on there?

... And the VERY last question for now, aimed at EricV this time: For your wang bar dips clip, it seemed like you were very 'laid-back' when it comes to the use of your whammy-bar. I've always been very careful when using it, ESPECIALLY when raising it. I got a PRS standard 24 guitar. The whammy bar is moveable both up and down, but it is certainly not loose, when it comes to raising. I don't know very much of whammy-bar's, so what do you think? I understand that there are differences between whammy bars, maybe you got one which can handle a lot of 'treatment'? Or maybe it is me who has been to careful with mine.

steve0192
07-26-2005, 07:32 PM
That's really impressive. One of the better tracks I've heard in recent time. Great defining of the atmosphere and the track itself is very refreshing. I liked the slow beginning notes, but suddenly you exploded. Then, you varied the speed in your playing again. Very good, truly. Steve, was it you who didn't use a pick when playing?

Thanks very much for your kind words. :)

It's kind of hidden away in there on the second page isnt it! I guess not too many people have noticed that there's a new backing jam track in there too. Perhaps I should have started a new thread..

Anyway, yes everything I play is in finger style. UKRuss and I have been planning to come up with a Strictly Fingerstyle thread in the near future so hopefully we'll get into some detail then.

The section around 2:38 is a repeating pattern isnt it? you've picked a tough pattern to start with, and if you try to play it my way, you'll see what I mean.

I've tabbed it out and indicated the right hand fingers using classical notation. so:-

p = thumb
i = index
m = middle
a = ring finger.

I'm sure the classical guitarists will notice that the right hand finger pattern is a classical guitar tremolo.

Anyway hope that sheds some light for you.

Regards

Steve

EricV
07-27-2005, 12:02 AM
... And the VERY last question for now, aimed at EricV this time: For your wang bar dips clip, it seemed like you were very 'laid-back' when it comes to the use of your whammy-bar. I've always been very careful when using it, ESPECIALLY when raising it. I got a PRS standard 24 guitar. The whammy bar is moveable both up and down, but it is certainly not loose, when it comes to raising. I don't know very much of whammy-bar's, so what do you think? I understand that there are differences between whammy bars, maybe you got one which can handle a lot of 'treatment'? Or maybe it is me who has been to careful with mine.

Apple Joe, first of all, thanks a lot for your kind words about my take on it. The fact that you lost focus was prolly caused because I, as usual, should have spend a bit more time ( like... a 2nd take ? ) on this in order to come up with a bit more structure. Since I mainly am writing and playing instrumental songs, structures is quite important to me, not only in order to keep it interesting for the listener.
I am glad you liked my take, and the fast part at the end... I am not quite sure which one you mean, but for the fast parts in there, I tried my best to dip into the "Satch style of playing"... not that I came that close, but after listening to the guy for years, and surely being influenced by him, the sound of that backing track got me into EOC-mode =)

Now, regarding your question... I donīt know if you wanna call my use of the bar "laid back" or "not careful". After all, all the whammy tricks were done by pressing down the bar, lowering the pitch.
When it comes to RAISING the pitch, pulling up on the bar, I am not quite as reckless than some other players. Vai for example occasionally pulls up on the bar a lot, raising the pitch by like a major third. I usually donīt go that far.
When it comes to lowering the pitch and those dips... I dunno whether it sounds reckless, but if it does, itīs because I have been using Floyd Rose type bridges for many years now. So I got used to using it a lot, cuz I can rely on the tunign stability those things provide.
You see, when I use a guitar with a vintage style trem, or even one of those Wilkinson bridges, I hold back a lot more, simply because it drives me insane to have the guitar outta tune once I touch the bar slightly.
Even some of those bridges are extremely stable, and I know how to set them up so they stay in tune pretty well, but I still use a Strat bridge different than a FR-style one ( not to mention the fact that my FR-style bridges are set up in a way that theyīre really easy-going... only little pressure is required )
Anyway, regarding your PRS... I have used several PRSs for a while, like 4 or 5 years ago. Incl. a CE 22 and a CU24. Those bridges are really stable when it comes to tuning, and I think you can afford to go crazy with them.
However, I think the FEEL of a Wilkinson or PRS style bridge is different than a floating FR-one, so I think that might limit you.
Try this: Next time youīre at a guitar store, pick up a guitar with a FR ( or FR-style ) bridge. Plug that in, and then try to use it. It might just be that you use it more, or in a more extreme way, simply because the feel is a abit different.
As I said, I always was quite satisifed with the tuning stability of PRS guitars and their bridges, but in case your guitar slips outta tune once you pull up on the bar a lot, or do a dive-bomb, then its understandable you hold back.
I hope this answers your question, hope it was not too long of a post, and thanks again for your kind words
Eric

Apple-Joe
07-27-2005, 12:32 AM
Well, first, let me give a couple of new words about your Locrian track. When I listened to the piece a second time it got more interesting. I discovered several great details that I didn't during the first listening. Maybe it was me who was 'away' for a few moments.
The part of your recording that I meant, was the very end, the last part where you're playing very fast, if I remember correctly it ended with a fade down. Yes, it sounded very much like Satriani.

About my PRS bridge, I don't think it gets out of tune that easy. Definately not very out of tune. It's rather me being afraid of breaking strings.

EDIT: Of course, you were right about your 'wang bar dips' clip. I didn't realize that you de-pressed the bar first, and then let it raise back to its natural position.

EricV
07-27-2005, 12:38 AM
Oh I see... that was some legato-playing using a 3NPS pattern. Thanks again for your comments, glad you liked it a bit more this time =)

Regarding the breaking string thing... I agree that itīs something you might think of ( "Man, Iīll break a string if I pull it up like that" ), but then again, consider this: a really wide bend ( minor or major third ) is an equal risk, and that shouldnīt keep you from using them, and also... if you like the sound of pulling up on the bar, you have to decide whether itīs worth risking to break a string.
I think it is ( especially when I am NOT on stage, but recording at home ), and therefore, I stopped caring about it too much.
I never broke a string doing it, by the way. It does not exactly increase their life-span, but I think to a certain degree, you can risk it
Eric

Apple-Joe
07-27-2005, 01:06 AM
OK. Now I have to say I seldom do minor third bends too. I'd definately not do that on the high E string. On the B string I might do it occasionally, especially now as I got a backup set of strings. For the raising of the bar, I might do that from time to time as well, but I would for sure not raise it much.

Another thing. I have never had as thick strings as today. Now I actually got 10-46. The sound itself was really great, maybe the best I have ever had. However, the G string was a hell when it comes to bending in the beginning. I have still not gotten used to it. It's like I have to bend it twice as much (comapred to earlier) to bend it up a whole step (OK, maybe I'm exaggerating a little bit). Is this usual? I had to bend it heavily until I reached the right note. It's almost so I'm considering finding the same note on the B string, just a few frets lower, in that kind of situations.

Any comments?

EDIT: steve, I have to say it was very awkward to play that way. However, I am sure it will get better by practice. Thanks a lot for the tab.

EricV
07-27-2005, 01:26 AM
It is normal that it feels like quite a difference. Especially if you have played 009s for a long time. Back when I got into trying other gauges, it was after I had used 009s for a while. Put on a set of 010s, and the bendings were really tough at first. I kept working on it, and eventually it worked just as well as bending on the thinner ones.
THEN I switched to 008s. Oh boy, guess my surprise when I did a major third bend without any problem suddenly. Without even really trying =)
Give it some time, maybe do my "bend by feel" exercise from the bending article, youīll get there eventually... 010s should still be "bendable" without having to think about playing the bend on another string.
Just my opinion though
Eric

Apple-Joe
07-27-2005, 01:28 AM
It is normal that it feels like quite a difference. Especially if you have played 009s for a long time. Back when I got into trying other gauges, it was after I had used 009s for a while. Put on a set of 010s, and the bendings were really tough at first. I kept working on it, and eventually it worked just as well as bending on the thinner ones.
THEN I switched to 008s. Oh boy, guess my surprise when I did a major third bend without any problem suddenly. Without even really trying =)
Give it some time, maybe do my "bend by feel" exercise from the bending article, youīll get there eventually... 010s should still be "bendable" without having to think about playing the bend on another string.
Just my opinion though
Eric

OK. I'll keep working on my bending on those strings. At least I have quite good ears so I know when the bend is right and when it isn't. I just have to 'get to know' especially the G string from the beginning on again.

steve0192
07-27-2005, 07:23 AM
EDIT: steve, I have to say it was very awkward to play that way. However, I am sure it will get better by practice. Thanks a lot for the tab.

As I said, I wouldnt have picked that particular section as an introduction to the technique, because you end up crossing strings with your middle finger.

If you want something a little easier try just sustaining a tremolo on one note, then move on to 4 note per string chromatics.

Regards

Steve

Apple-Joe
07-27-2005, 02:19 PM
As I said, I wouldnt have picked that particular section as an introduction to the technique, because you end up crossing strings with your middle finger.

If you want something a little easier try just sustaining a tremolo on one note, then move on to 4 note per string chromatics.

Regards

Steve

Yes, but how about the fingering? I am not experienced with this method, the classical method if I understood you correctly.

Do you have a few easy beginner examples in Power Tab format? I could experiment on my own, creating my own habits, but I'd really like to "hear it from the pro's". In the meantime, I could give the example I already got, a new try.

steve0192
07-27-2005, 06:29 PM
Yes, but how about the fingering? I am not experienced with this method, the classical method if I understood you correctly.

Do you have a few easy beginner examples in Power Tab format? I could experiment on my own, creating my own habits, but I'd really like to "hear it from the pro's". In the meantime, I could give the example I already got, a new try.

The tremolo technique is a right hand technique. Basically you play the same pattern over and over. The pattern being... (using the letters I gave you earlier). p a m i p a m i p a m i.... over and over again.

Have a look at the tab file I gave you, you'll see that' that's exactly what the right hand is doing.

There's a video clip of someone doing this slowly at the bottom of this page...

http://www.mangore.com/recuerdos_de_la_alhambra.html

This is the traditional tremolo technique where the thumb plays the bass accompanyment and the fingers repeat the same melody note, but there's no reason why the thumb and fingers cant all play the same note ~ what I did in a run in the the Strictly Pentatonic improv, or why the fingers cant all play different notes in a pattern or run as you heard in the Dorian improv above.

I'll spend a bit more time and try to demonstrate things a little better when UKRUSS and I get our respective acts together.

EDIT:
I was just having a look around that site and came across this.

http://www.mangore.com/08.ram

It has a very good demonstration, with lots of closeups, of the tremolo in action on a classical guitar.


Regards

Steve

Apple-Joe
07-27-2005, 07:27 PM
Great links! Interesting. A lot to dive into. So this is what you've been studying. Seems like it takes a lot of work. However, I'm ready to give it a try.

steve0192
07-27-2005, 07:56 PM
Great links! Interesting. A lot to dive into. So this is what you've been studying. Seems like it takes a lot of work. However, I'm ready to give it a try.

I started playing the classical guitar when I was 7, I'm 39 now, so yes I'd agree with that.. :D

Steve

UKRuss
07-27-2005, 08:28 PM
Damn!!!

That's two strictlies I've been caught dragging my arse over!

RIGHT! This weekend, sorted for sure!

Apple-Joe
07-27-2005, 09:21 PM
steve, let's say you're going to play a note on one string, in triplets. Would you use the "a-m-i a-m-i a-m-i" motion consequently for that little exercise?

steve0192
07-27-2005, 10:10 PM
Hi there,

Personally I'd use p a m i p a m i anyway, because I'm so used to it now. As with the snippet I tabbed. The pattern is a 6 note pattern that would fit the right hand more easily if you used 3 fingers rather than 4, but I'm so used to the 4 note pattern now that it's not a problem any more.

It depends though. I take big liberties playing the electric, so use techniques that I'd never get away with playing on the classical. But then the instruments are so different that I think you have to do that to get the best out of the instrument.

a m i a m i is fine though. The thing to do is to just play a single repeated note and try to get it as even an clean as possible. What newbies tend to do is to go for speed straight away and you end up with uneven groups of notes. Speed is not a problem, it really does come with time with these techniques.


Steve

Apple-Joe
07-27-2005, 11:19 PM
Hi there,

Personally I'd use p a m i p a m i anyway, because I'm so used to it now. As with the snippet I tabbed. The pattern is a 6 note pattern that would fit the right hand more easily if you used 3 fingers rather than 4, but I'm so used to the 4 note pattern now that it's not a problem any more.

It depends though. I take big liberties playing the electric, so use techniques that I'd never get away with playing on the classical. But then the instruments are so different that I think you have to do that to get the best out of the instrument.

a m i a m i is fine though. The thing to do is to just play a single repeated note and try to get it as even an clean as possible. What newbies tend to do is to go for speed straight away and you end up with uneven groups of notes. Speed is not a problem, it really does come with time with these techniques.


Steve

I checked out the Power Tab once again. The example you provided yesterday. I certainly understand what you meant by that "middle finger crossing index finger". It was a little awkward, however, I have a feeling it will get better by time. I'll ignore speed in the beginning, and focus on doing it right.

As we're on the subject of fingerstyle. Have you ever tried this technique; Use your right hand thumb and index as you would use the a pick. The thumb counts as down stroke, while the index steps in where you'd usually do an up stroke. Are you familiar with this technique? I haven't known it for long - but it's a good technique to use if you haven't got a pick available.

steve0192
07-28-2005, 07:22 AM
Hi there,

Yes I know it, but dont use it quite like that.

I tend to hold my hand like I'm holding a pick, but use my index finger nail on both the up and down strokes.

Probably 50% of the 2 solos in this thread were played like that. I try to mix techniques to get different textures in my playing.

Regards

Steve

Apple-Joe
07-28-2005, 09:13 AM
Hi there,

Yes I know it, but dont use it quite like that.

I tend to hold my hand like I'm holding a pick, but use my index finger nail on both the up and down strokes.

Probably 50% of the 2 solos in this thread were played like that. I try to mix techniques to get different textures in my playing.

Regards

Steve

Then your nail must be quite strong now.

live
07-29-2005, 02:32 PM
@ steve: love your first take (you know - the opener for this thread) with it's long bends and tones full of intention all over the place! the runs are fast and great too. Think I don't have to mention something about the back-track because everything is already said...

@UKRuss: As I know you: Great tone, new and wonderful ideas. At about 3:19 there
's a good variation of this kinda theme from the outro and afterwards the real theme follows... That's cool! And your sound is really memorable - the things you do in the beginning (@ 0.18 for example) are often or ever in your tracks - meaning the end of a lick, phrase or whatever with two fast (and outsliding??!?) notes... Just a catch from my ears.

@satchdude: strange! @0.45 there's a very strange break, had to hear it a few times before my ears could give it "a better mark" but keep going on with coming up with such strange ideas (perhaps there's only a "bridge-part" missing to lead my ears(perhaps others too) to the next step and lets them not standing where they were and then having to jump over a big canyon -> attention!metaphor ;-) )
@1:18: I have to compliment you on your picking!
The Legato- and Speedstuff is as always amazing!

EricV: Your track took me from the chair! (although the reverbs in some of the effects are a bit overdone -> no big matter...) It sounds if everything is in it's right place (no link to radiohead or something ;-) ) and that's the important thing about it -> if you can get this in a quick take like here you demonstrate again what accounts for a good musician...
I also use a FR-Bridge because it's more comfortable to me and I like using the trem... But if you want to change the tuning you can get into trouble if you have no guitar without Floyd Rose...

steve, the second backing track is great too - reminds me of a song but dunno which one :-( . the lead sound you chose is perfect for this and supports your playing without faking something! You got a BIG plus in my eyes... At about 2:30 for example you seem to have lots of fun and that comes over! One question: how many takes did you make before this one?

live

P.S. The Fingerstyle tips + the link are very helpful -> looking forward to the 'strictly fingerstyle' thread!
________
Cumshot Forced (http://www.****tube.com/categories/490/forced/videos/1)

steve0192
07-29-2005, 05:16 PM
@ steve: love your first take (you know - the opener for this thread) with it's long bends and tones full of intention all over the place! the runs are fast and great too. Think I don't have to mention something about the back-track because everything is already said...


Thanks very much! Its much appreciated and I enjoyed getting it together too.



steve, the second backing track is great too - reminds me of a song but dunno which one :-( . the lead sound you chose is perfect for this and supports your playing without faking something! You got a BIG plus in my eyes... At about 2:30 for example you seem to have lots of fun and that comes over! One question: how many takes did you make before this one?

live

P.S. The Fingerstyle tips + the link are very helpful -> looking forward to the 'strictly fingerstyle' thread!

How many takes? I dont know.. I recorded the backing track a 2 or 3 days before I did the solo. I had a few aborted attempts at the solo but I didnt like the overall structure they were a bit too boring and samey all the way through.

Then I used the old trick of rolling the volume control back for the opening and second verse, but cranked it up to full for the over-the-top "chorus" bits.. That gave it enough of an overall dynamic structure for me to post it online and yes I had great fun flying over the neck on the chorus bits! :D

So 4 or 5 attempts I suppose, but they focussed on getting the overall feel right rather than mapping the melody or runs out.

Steve

UKRuss
08-01-2005, 07:52 AM
Many thanks for the kind words live.

Just to say I thought Eric had some very Vaiesque ideas goin no in there too, really enjoyed that.

I broke out the whammy for my Lydian take which was used moderately, but I think I'm gonna have to get fun with it again now!

BonzaiBob
08-18-2005, 06:50 PM
wow!!! This is great, i'm really happy with myself with this one!!

Before this i never EVER put modes into practise, all i knew was what they were, i never even played one.. I hope i've done this right!! But i picked it up instantly and this was my 2nd take,

I've never really been a ''shredder'', and i CERTAINLY have never been a good shredder improviser! i'm usually all over the place! Don't get me wrong, i'm a little sloppy with this, but i'm still happy with it.

Anyway, this is just a really short one, i hope i've done it right, i don't really know much about modes to hear the difference really, so can you guys give me some feedback?

Thanks a lot!;)

UKRuss
08-18-2005, 07:40 PM
It sounds like the correct scale to me and it sounds like you are enjoying yourself too:D

The thing thats missing for me is a theme, yes your chopping in the faster licks bt they tend to be of the same type and so their is too much repitition of one idea. Try mixing it up a bit get some different ideas in there and work the improvisation.

But it's defintely locrian and i would think you've got to be happy with that!

Thats what the strictlies are all about, a short cut to understanding!;)

BonzaiBob
08-18-2005, 07:47 PM
yeah i understand completely.. i litterally just learned the locrian mode before i started, i only used about 3 positions and i only ventured above the 12th fret once.. but predominantly using 5th-10th fret, so yeah..it's repetative!:D I just have to become more familiar with the mode, i may practise tonight and maybe stick up another new and improved mp3 tomorrow.

Goes to show what a few lessons can do for ya!

UKRuss
08-18-2005, 08:24 PM
It's good stuff Bob! I'm looking forward to your next take:D

BonzaiBob
08-18-2005, 08:38 PM
cheers man, so am i!:)

steve0192
08-18-2005, 09:45 PM
yeah i understand completely.. i litterally just learned the locrian mode before i started, i only used about 3 positions and i only ventured above the 12th fret once.. but predominantly using 5th-10th fret, so yeah..it's repetative!:D I just have to become more familiar with the mode, i may practise tonight and maybe stick up another new and improved mp3 tomorrow.

Goes to show what a few lessons can do for ya!

Hi Bob,

Well done! It sounds like you've got the idea of the mode, rather than just thinking that you can get away with playing in F major (because all the notes are the same after all :rolleyes: ).

You were clearly having fun with the track too. Which for me is a big reason for me contributing to the stricklies!

Good stuff

Steve

BonzaiBob
08-19-2005, 10:08 AM
Hi Bob,

Well done! It sounds like you've got the idea of the mode, rather than just thinking that you can get away with playing in F major (because all the notes are the same after all :rolleyes: ).

You were clearly having fun with the track too. Which for me is a big reason for me contributing to the stricklies!

Good stuff

Steve

You know, i didn't even know that it was the same as F major:rolleyes: Probably best that i didn't anyway.

But out of curiosity, how would F major sound different to B Locrian?

Thanks Steve!

UKRuss
08-19-2005, 11:02 AM
Well, F Major and B Locrian would sound quite a bit different.

I think you mean, in relation to this strictly, F Major and E Locrian. Your solo was E Locrian using the same notes as the scale of Fmajor.

You should know that Locrian mode is the 7th mode of the parent major scale F.

B locrian therefore is the 7th mode of the scale of C Major.

In any case, the way the mode sounds is dictated by the chords the scale is played over and the notes used for resolution and tension. Generally to bring out the flavour of the mode you might focus on playing some of the characteristic notes of the scale.

Steve mention watching out for the b5, one characteristic of Locrian.

Have a go at finding out the construction methods for Locrian from the parent major scale and also from the relative minor scale (Dminor in the case of this piece).

Another way of finding out the modal difference between FMajor and E Locrian would be to record an Fmajor vamp and then play the solo you played over this piece over that recording, you'll find it fits (you'll need to resolve in a different way i.e. to F rather than E perhaps) but generally it will work and sound major or Ionian in nature rather than Locrian and minor.

Hope that helps! Sorry for giving you homework, but these things are best worked out and understood by yourself.:D

G'Luck

BonzaiBob
08-19-2005, 11:13 AM
woops, i think i made a mistake, i read the original post wrong.. I played this used B Locrian, not E Locrian:eek:

Go me!:rolleyes:

ashc
08-19-2005, 11:25 AM
So that makes your solo E phrygian :D

BonzaiBob
08-19-2005, 11:34 AM
touché!! not exactly stricly strict! ha ha..

UKRuss
08-19-2005, 11:35 AM
Hmmm.

I'm not sure you did make a mistake. It defintely sounds to me like your playing in E Locrian.

B Locrian as B natural in it obviously.

E Locrian has Bb in it.

I think if you were playing B locrian it would have sounded pretty nasty as the B would clash heavily with the Bb.

Lets have a look:

B Major has 5 sharps F# C# G# D# A#

So: B C# D# E F# G# A# B

B Locrian therefore following the formula of Locrian having b2 b3 b5 b6 b7

would be B C D E F G A B

E Major has only four sharps in it F# C# G# D#

So: E F# G# A B C# D# E

Again following the b2 b3 b5 b6 b7 formula to construct Locrian

would be E F G A Bb C D E.

Only one difference between the two scales, Bb as opposed to B but in this case, what a difference.

Maybe you managed to skip it, I haven't analaysed your solo in detail but I think to me it sounds liek you are resolving back to E as your root, so even if you avoid playing the Bb I think you're still giving an E locrian tonality to your solo rather than a B Locrian. You're defintely not resolving to B as that would stand out like a sore thumb.

I think that you're possibly thinking your playing B locrian as 6 of the possible noted fit into that scale but in reality you are using them from E Locrian.

Try going again and adding in the B and Bb to see which fits, i think the Bb will lead you to the conclusion that E Locrian is the right scale here, with the right Locrian tonality.

One other possibility is that you are playing E Phrygian which would be exactly the same notes as B Locrian.

As Phrygian shares the same notes as Locrian but without the b5, this is a distinct possibility.

E Major again

E F# G# A B C# D# E

Phrygian b2 b3 b6 b7

E F G A B C D E same as B Locrian B C D E F G A B

But due to the chords you are playing it over, we would refer to it as E Phrygian and not B Locrian.

The test will be to see whether you can get that Bb or B to work.

If Bb then E locrian it is
If B then E Phrygian it is.

The chord progression kind of dictates it can't be B locrian.

Hope that helps. Sorry for long post.

UKRuss
08-19-2005, 11:37 AM
touché!! not exactly stricly strict! ha ha..

My money is still on it being E Locrian...I stand by my strictly strict comment;)

Again Ash: SNAP

UKRuss
08-19-2005, 11:39 AM
Just checking the chord progression again and of course because fo the E dim and Bb chord

I still think E phrygian would sound nasty clashing.

E Locrian it must be!

BonzaiBob
08-19-2005, 12:26 PM
That's some post there Russ!! Thanks.

I think at the end of the day it just comes down to my inexperience, and the coincidence that the scale i was playing isn't too dissimilar to the scale i should have been playing!

But, i've gone over a small bit of my solo.. It appears i was indeed playing in E Phrygian because i know i was paying close to attention to B Major, because that's what i thought i was supposed to be playing, check out my track again, around the 52sec mark i'm playing around the 7th, 8th, and 10th frets on the high E, rather than the 6th, 8th, and 10th like i should have done..

I'll have another shot at it now though, playing in E Locrian of course;)

BonzaiBob
08-19-2005, 02:15 PM
Ok, here's my other track in E Locrian this time!!:cool:

It's alright, nothing amazing! :rolleyes:

Can you guys hear the difference at all?

*edit* It would probably help if i attached the file!!:p

Apple-Joe
08-19-2005, 11:14 PM
Ok, here's my other track in E Locrian this time!!:cool:

It's alright, nothing amazing! :rolleyes:

Can you guys hear the difference at all?

*edit* It would probably help if i attached the file!!:p

I liked the second take better, but somehow I'm not sure if it was just as Locrian (concerning the overall atmosphere) as the first recording?

Anyway, the playing was good, and I liked the fresh intro.

UKRuss
08-20-2005, 06:16 AM
My ear isn't good enough to discern note for note but I take you word for it the scale is now Locrian, and it does sound more like the Bb is in there.

It's strange in the first one that the B works at all over al those dim chords and the like.

I too like the second take better, more space. I like your use of the 2nps type faster runs in this take, a bit more thought gone in to the placement and overall feeling.

Much better me thinks!:D

BonzaiBob
08-20-2005, 07:45 AM
thanks guys..

I did put more effort into the 2nd take, i played over it quite a few times before i settled on that one. There's still a few bum notes in there though.

I'm pretty sure i stuck strictly to the E Locrian in this one, the B in the first take probably worked because i didn't focus on it, it was used more as a passing note. But you're right, when i tried using the B when playing over it again it didn't sound right at all.

UKRuss
08-21-2005, 08:48 AM
As we got back into this one I fancied another bash.

All pure Locrian and Locrian based\pent licks.

Enjoy!:D

mattblack850
08-21-2005, 10:32 AM
Another fine effort there, Russ dude!!!!!!

I have to admit, I'm struggling with this one, I can't get it to sound 'right'.

BonzaiBob
08-21-2005, 10:58 AM
can't listen Russ as this pc has no sound, will listen when i get home.

Post up what you've done so far Matt, it can't hurt, maybe we could point you in the right direction?

UKRuss
08-21-2005, 06:50 PM
Cheers Neil. Whats holding you up? getting the Locrian sound down or the style to employ over the backing?

I must admit I didn't feel I had any point of reference really in terms of a locrian sound. Like there are definitive songs that you can point to for Lydian or mixo etc. I just didnt know of anything that was Locrian by it's nature, well I'm sure there must be some, but I don't know them if you know what I mean.

In the end, for my first take i tried to do something a bit different to compliment the zany backing. Second time I thought theme, shred, return to theme, shred etc...

i still dont know if its Locrian by its very nature but the b5 is defintely in there so i guess it must be.

I'm with Bob, have a go and post up, it'll give a good discussion platform or as usual, you'll rise to the task and put up a blinder:D

Apple-Joe
08-21-2005, 09:28 PM
Cheers Neil. Whats holding you up? getting the Locrian sound down or the style to employ over the backing?

I must admit I didn't feel I had any point of reference really in terms of a locrian sound. Like there are definitive songs that you can point to for Lydian or mixo etc. I just didnt know of anything that was Locrian by it's nature, well I'm sure there must be some, but I don't know them if you know what I mean.

In the end, for my first take i tried to do something a bit different to compliment the zany backing. Second time I thought theme, shred, return to theme, shred etc...

i still dont know if its Locrian by its very nature but the b5 is defintely in there so i guess it must be.

I'm with Bob, have a go and post up, it'll give a good discussion platform or as usual, you'll rise to the task and put up a blinder:D

I think Metallica's Sad But True is based on the Locrian mode. That's the answer I got when I asked for concrete examples on the modes. For the Locrian mode; Sad But True was mentioned, and this source is extremely reliable.

UKRuss
08-22-2005, 07:17 AM
Thanks AJ, I shall check that out.

At risk of being lynched, I've never been a great Metallica fan:eek: although i guess I am aware they get mentioned a lot as the Locrian kings.

ashc
08-22-2005, 07:45 AM
I'm having the same trouble as the venerable "Mr 850". I had a play with this track yesterday and I could get something there, but nothing coherent. I actually just wanted to put some heavy Rage Against the Machine riffage on it and no solo at all... Another go tonight if I get chance, and if that doesn't work out it's gonna have to be whatever I've got..

mattblack850
08-22-2005, 11:07 AM
Cheers Neil. Whats holding you up? getting the Locrian sound down or the style to employ over the backing?
I'm with Bob, have a go and post up, it'll give a good discussion platform or as usual, you'll rise to the task and put up a blinder:D

The problem is just trying to get something coherent, something that kind of all hangs together if you get my drift!!!
I am getting there though, it's far better now than my first attempts!!!

UKRuss
08-22-2005, 11:15 AM
Sounds like we'll have two interesting takes from Ash and Neil to analyse. Good stuff!

Apple-Joe
08-22-2005, 12:13 PM
I like Loc'n'Roll! Characteristic Locrian atmosphere, mixed with a Pentatonic influence here and there. Great, you seem to have a great sense of note choice and you certainly know how to play them, UKRuss.

UKRuss
08-22-2005, 12:15 PM
Cheers AJ!:D

mattblack850
08-22-2005, 03:07 PM
OK, here it is!!
Certainly not the cleanest take, unfortunately, but I think I managed to capture the ideas I was having!! There's a couple of pretty sloppy bits which I will be working on, I just need to tie it together with a theme of some kind, I've got an idea for one, just need to spend a bit more time with this!!!
Being an old blueser rather than a Metal merchant it's been kinda fun messing around with this stuff!!!

Oh there's one very blatant 'B' near the beginning!!

ashc
08-22-2005, 09:18 PM
Aaagh, drove myself nuts with this, by the time I had even half a take I'd completely lost all sync and it's yuck, BUT my strictly philosophy is that when I get stuck in properly it has to be that day (and never never again in this case), so here it comes warts and all.

Neil - I'll check yours out tomorrow! (it's going to take 10 mins to upload this mess of mine).

MattW
08-23-2005, 07:48 PM
Hello again guys, I've been (unexpectedly) without the internet for the vast majority of the last month or so, I've got a couple of Uni things that I need to do in the coming weeks but after that I can finish my attempt at this, it's sounding a bit strange at the moment..:D

UKRuss
08-24-2005, 07:46 AM
Good to have you back aboard MattW! Look forward to the take.

Neil, I liked the deliberate dischord and the fact that none of your notes stay still, lots of movements using bends and the like. Added to the unsettling factor of the backing track. Just offering a glimpse of resolution and then taking it away again.

Ash, I liked the different rhythm, the arp based opening and particularly the descending runs at I think .52ish and .59ish.

ashc
08-24-2005, 09:28 AM
Thanks Russ, it was a real toughie doing anything with this. I was listening to your last take and also Neil's and I became aware that I hadn't held any notes and (more or less) as a result there was no space, or vibrato, in my take whatsoever. Both you guys had mixed up fast bits with more sustained parts, I instead was panicking about what I was going to do next.

The opening bit was based around the "root-b5-octave" symmetry if you go up one string and one fret across the strings. Unfortunately I momentarily forgot about the tuning of the B string.. so the first one goes up Bb-E-Bb-Eb (oops), but the second figure goes E-Bb-E-A (not so bad). The next bit was Edim and Bbmaj7 arp based after that it's mindless :p

MattW
08-30-2005, 07:55 PM
Nearly ready to submit, I've only been able to do a little bit each day (I've got re-sits for Uni, oops). There are 3ish parts to it, but I can't get the final solo to sound anything like I want...hmm.

MattW
09-03-2005, 09:49 PM
URUGHGHhghhh, I've just made one hell of a mistake. I accidentally double normalised the wave patterns and saved it before I had realised so almost all of them have digital distortion in now which sounds horrible, I'm gonna have to re-record most of the parts now.:(
I was just about to upload it too, lol.

Apple-Joe
09-03-2005, 10:36 PM
Make sure you re-record a track quite soon. I've become addicted to your recordings as I'm writing. I've listened to the Aeolian and Dorian takes of yours. At the moment it's the Phrygian.

The Aeolian and Dorian impressed me in the way that you incorporated fast technical playing, but you succeeded at coming up with interesting original and melodic ideas at the same time.

How have you been practicing? What has been your main focus?

00:50 in your Dorian recording there's something going on. Quite low-pitched notes, you play some sort of a run, you ascend several notes, then a little back, then some more up. I like the sound of it. How did you play it? Did I hear a legato style sound in there?

MattW
09-04-2005, 08:47 AM
Wow, cool, I'll try and get it sorted today then!:cool::D
It's less technical than my other submissions so far probably, but that's mainly because there is something particularly different about it, at least amongst the ones I have recorded.

I'm glad you think that I managed to come up with some original and interesting melodic ideas in them, that's what I try and and aim for. I do think it is possibly to have a melodic quality in fast runs as opposed to just single notes, I suppose it's more of a textural approach, although I am no where near achieving the level of that which I am happy with. (but hopefully my boundries will move rather than me getting complacent)

I think my first submissions were less technical and more melodically driven, I do prefer them in some ways, but my technique sounds a bit weak to me when I listen to them back. (Mainly referring to the first of the 2 Dorian takes and the Phyrigian to some extent).

How do I practice? That's a tricky one! Well, it's probably not structured enough since I find it very hard to stick to a timetable of any kind, the thing is the way I play isn't probably that normal (in the big scheme of things anyway) since it involves alternating picking & economy picking mixed in equal measures and I play legato all as hammer-ons, descending and ascending, like left hand tapping, it's sounds smoother to me that way. I have Allan Holdsworth to thank for the inspiration to force myself to re-learn that from scratch!

I suppose I practice each of the 3 techniques seperately to some degree, concentrating on the bit I find hardest in each at any give time, then I mix them together and practice them as one general approach. To get it work as a whole and to be comfortable in any situation I often practice things that I notice I mess up on regular occasions, ironing out any imperfections as it were. (and let me tell you, there are a lot of those!)

I think most the important thing for me is trying to do equal amounts of ear training with the technical (+theory etc). I don't always manage it, but I try, and it definitely helps from a melodic point of view. The most benificial so far probably being singing what I play & solfege. I also found using Earmaster Pro quite benificial, since it is rather structured and as I have mentioned that is something that I am not particulary good at if left to structure things myself.

With regard to what I was doing in the second Dorian take at 0:50, it wasn't anything special really unfortunately, lol:( it went something like this:


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------4----------------------------------------------------4-5-7-5-4-------------------------
----------------------------3-5-7--7-5-3-2-------------------3-5-7-5-3------------3-5-7----------7-5-3--------------------
----------------------3-5-7-----------------------------3-5-7----------7-5-3-4-5-7---------------------7-5-3--------------
--(-2)(-1)0-1-2-3-5-7-----------------------------3-5-7------------------------------------------------------7-5-3-2-1-0--


The notes are all of approximately the same length, apart from the obvious rest, but not too strictly since it's meant to be fluid and I like it to breath a bit.;) The (-2)(-1) bit is a D and Eb played by using the tremolo so that I could get a little chromatic run before the main part. I got that idea from a Saxaphone playing friend who would occasionally lead up to a note or run with a slurred chromatic run, it didn't work that effectively for me really 'cos the the notes didn't really cut through the mix and my timing was a bit off.
Some of that will be legato and some will be picked, I try most of the time when doing runs like that to desguise where I'm picking as much as possible (although I admit, due to the nature of the last couple of submissions they have been rather more percussive in timbre). Due to the fact that I picked lightly, and the fact that I change how I play things quite often, I couldn't say with certainty what combination of picking & legato I used on that occasion, I could hazard a guess at ascending being mostly hammered and descending being mostly lightly picked as a general rule though as my legato technique was in the transition stage between the 'Hammer & pull' & 'Hammer all' styles at the time and I think I had lost the ability to play descending legato properly. lol.

I hope some of that is of some help, feel free to ask as many questions as you want, I'm more than pleased to provide any assistance where I can.:)

Apple-Joe
09-04-2005, 01:15 PM
Wow, cool, I'll try and get it sorted today then!:cool::D
It's less technical than my other submissions so far probably, but that's mainly because there is something particularly different about it, at least amongst the ones I have recorded.

I'm glad you think that I managed to come up with some original and interesting melodic ideas in them, that's what I try and and aim for. I do think it is possibly to have a melodic quality in fast runs as opposed to just single notes, I suppose it's more of a textural approach, although I am no where near achieving the level of that which I am happy with. (but hopefully my boundries will move rather than me getting complacent)

I think my first submissions were less technical and more melodically driven, I do prefer them in some ways, but my technique sounds a bit weak to me when I listen to them back. (Mainly referring to the first of the 2 Dorian takes and the Phyrigian to some extent).

How do I practice? That's a tricky one! Well, it's probably not structured enough since I find it very hard to stick to a timetable of any kind, the thing is the way I play isn't probably that normal (in the big scheme of things anyway) since it involves alternating picking & economy picking mixed in equal measures and I play legato all as hammer-ons, descending and ascending, like left hand tapping, it's sounds smoother to me that way. I have Allan Holdsworth to thank for the inspiration to force myself to re-learn that from scratch!

I suppose I practice each of the 3 techniques seperately to some degree, concentrating on the bit I find hardest in each at any give time, then I mix them together and practice them as one general approach. To get it work as a whole and to be comfortable in any situation I often practice things that I notice I mess up on regular occasions, ironing out any imperfections as it were. (and let me tell you, there are a lot of those!)

I think most the important thing for me is trying to do equal amounts of ear training with the technical (+theory etc). I don't always manage it, but I try, and it definitely helps from a melodic point of view. The most benificial so far probably being singing what I play & solfege. I also found using Earmaster Pro quite benificial, since it is rather structured and as I have mentioned that is something that I am not particulary good at if left to structure things myself.

With regard to what I was doing in the second Dorian take at 0:50, it wasn't anything special really unfortunately, lol:( it went something like this:


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------4----------------------------------------------------4-5-7-5-4-------------------------
----------------------------3-5-7--7-5-3-2-------------------3-5-7-5-3------------3-5-7----------7-5-3--------------------
----------------------3-5-7-----------------------------3-5-7----------7-5-3-4-5-7---------------------7-5-3--------------
--(-2)(-1)0-1-2-3-5-7-----------------------------3-5-7------------------------------------------------------7-5-3-2-1-0--


The notes are all of approximately the same length, apart from the obvious rest, but not too strictly since it's meant to be fluid and I like it to breath a bit.;) The (-2)(-1) bit is a D and Eb played by using the tremolo so that I could get a little chromatic run before the main part. I got that idea from a Saxaphone playing friend who would occasionally lead up to a note or run with a slurred chromatic run, it didn't work that effectively for me really 'cos the the notes didn't really cut through the mix and my timing was a bit off.
Some of that will be legato and some will be picked, I try most of the time when doing runs like that to desguise where I'm picking as much as possible (although I admit, due to the nature of the last couple of submissions they have been rather more percussive in timbre). Due to the fact that I picked lightly, and the fact that I change how I play things quite often, I couldn't say with certainty what combination of picking & legato I used on that occasion, I could hazard a guess at ascending being mostly hammered and descending being mostly lightly picked as a general rule though as my legato technique was in the transition stage between the 'Hammer & pull' & 'Hammer all' styles at the time and I think I had lost the ability to play descending legato properly. lol.

I hope some of that is of some help, feel free to ask as many questions as you want, I'm more than pleased to provide any assistance where I can.:)

Thank you. A lot of useful information there. I think I'll explore Allan Holdsworth. I've seen him mentioned several places now. Maybe I'll listen to your Dorian recording again, and try the run as you tabbed it out. We'll see if I dare.

Ideally, I think I should try a few smaller runs first. When I think about it, I can't play a run at all, if it consists of let's say more than eight notes. When I say "play" I mean playing it fast and playing it clean. At least, I've got something to focus on for the future, and I've also got the inspiration/motivation.

EDIT: Will there be a Locrian recording soon, MattW?

MattW
09-04-2005, 07:36 PM
I recommend that everyone checks out Holdsworth at some point, it really did change my outlook on guitar playing (along with Shawn Lane).

@Any Admin who may be reading: What's the forum rules/copyright restrictions on posting short excerpts of a solo from either a CD or a live performance? I'm not an expert on this matter.

If I can't post any mp3s then I can advise you of some essential listening instead.

With respect to playing runs, the key, for me, was at first is to take small repeating patterns and work on them (don't forget to check what intervals and notes you are playing in any given key so that it doesn't just become a sterile pattern that would eventually mount up to a repertoire of irrelevant licks). Then as you become accustomed to those, extend them in one, the other, or both directions. Mix them up, play them starting on a different note each time, change the number of notes, miss notes out, include stretches, try to think of every possibly permeation that your fingers can move in, then when you finally come to play forget all that and hopefully your fingers will be so accustomed to moving in any way possible that they will be capapble of playing whatever you want them to.

I find a refreshing antithesis to that type of practice is to force myself to play nothing resembling any discernable pattern if at all possible, say, deliberately limiting myself to 2 adjacent notes in any one passage of music.

I think the Locrian take is going to be a bit delayed, I've got an exam on the 8th so I'm going to have to leave it until after before I will have enough time to spare to correct the horrendous blunder I made. Doh.

Apple-Joe
09-04-2005, 07:51 PM
I recommend that everyone checks out Holdsworth at some point, it really did change my outlook on guitar playing (along with Shawn Lane).

@Any Admin who may be reading: What's the forum rules/copyright restrictions on posting short excerpts of a solo from either a CD or a live performance? I'm not an expert on this matter.

If I can't post any mp3s then I can advise you of some essential listening instead.

With respect to playing runs, the key, for me, was at first is to take small repeating patterns and work on them (don't forget to check what intervals and notes you are playing in any given key so that it doesn't just become a sterile pattern that would eventually mount up to a repertoire of irrelevant licks). Then as you become accustomed to those, extend them in one, the other, or both directions. Mix them up, play them starting on a different note each time, change the number of notes, miss notes out, include stretches, try to think of every possibly permeation that your fingers can move in, then when you finally come to play forget all that and hopefully your fingers will be so accustomed to moving in any way possible that they will be capapble of playing whatever you want them to.

I find a refreshing antithesis to that type of practice is to force myself to play nothing resembling any discernable pattern if at all possible, say, deliberately limiting myself to 2 adjacent notes in any one passage of music.

I think the Locrian take is going to be a bit delayed, I've got an exam on the 8th so I'm going to have to leave it until after before I will have enough time to spare to correct the horrendous blunder I made. Doh.

OK. Looking forward to the Locrian recording.

About runs. Actually my plan has become to begin with shorter sequences that consist of a few notes only. Then play it over and over until it sounds good. When I can play the short passage at a satisfying level, I'll move on and add a few more notes to the phrase.

Yesterday I came up with a short thing based on the natural minor scale. It was played descending, and I only picked 12 times I think. I have mostly been using the Pentatonic scale, so including notes from the natural minor makes it sound a little more fresh to me. The thing is, I actually noticed progression yesterday. I think the key is to start VERY VERY basic.

MattW
09-09-2005, 08:38 PM
At last! I re-recorded the bits that had been affected by the normalisation, I'm not as happy with them as the original version but let's be honest I would probably never get anything submitted if I only posted things I was happy with!:p
I'm trying to do it in another slightly different style than my other efforts, I did 3 different parts, sort of, so I'm trying to force you need to listen to all of it, unfortunately for you! I don't know if I really managed but any comments good or bad are much appreciated (by the way, I already know my tapping sucks;)), if there is anything that you think I need to improve then please say, I'm not particulary good at judging myself. Cheers.:cool:

MattW - Locrian (http://s23.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0UAFFH73R5KDR2Q3ERP4G04FDZ)

Apple-Joe
09-10-2005, 10:57 AM
At last! I re-recorded the bits that had been affected by the normalisation, I'm not as happy with them as the original version but let's be honest I would probably never get anything submitted if I only posted things I was happy with!:p
I'm trying to do it in another slightly different style than my other efforts, I did 3 different parts, sort of, so I'm trying to force you need to listen to all of it, unfortunately for you! I don't know if I really managed but any comments good or bad are much appreciated (by the way, I already know my tapping sucks;)), if there is anything that you think I need to improve then please say, I'm not particulary good at judging myself. Cheers.:cool:

MattW - Locrian (http://s23.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0UAFFH73R5KDR2Q3ERP4G04FDZ)

I really liked this one. You let the song build up - you didn't stress it in the beginning of the song, but you definately hit the right notes. Great atmosphere. The instrument sound itself is fantastic too. Towards the end of the track you seemed to increase the intensity, and it worked. I've listened to different kinds of jazz lately, and there was a few moments of your recording which reminded me of jazz. I think that's a good thing.

This inspired me and made me want to record a Strictly Locrian myself, but it's a challenge. It might be hard to come up with lines that work. I think I'm going to study the chords in the backing track and find the most important notes to emphasize, then focus strongly on interesting rhythmic patterns.

MattW
09-10-2005, 08:31 PM
Cheers Joe, I tried to take a more moderate approach than my last 1 or 2, I'm glad it came across that way. I appreciate the Jazz reference as I it's probably my favourite genre and if any of that ever comes across in the way I play then that makes me happy!
This was probably the one I found the most difficult so far, but it was fun when I eventually got something down. I look forward to hearing your take.

Apple-Joe
11-14-2005, 09:41 PM
I hope there will be more contributions to this strictly. Really an interesting backing track. I might see what I'm able to do myself soon as well. The backing is very different and refreshing.

Joe Pass Jr
02-12-2006, 09:43 AM
This is indeed a creepy sounding track. I think some Mattiahas Eklund(sp?) style harmonics are being called for. Might try it later on when i have my other axe at hand.

Apple-Joe
02-12-2006, 07:55 PM
OK, but make sure you have a go soon.