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bluesyourdaddy
05-23-2005, 02:41 PM
Hi,

I'm getting a handle of the diminished scale (Half/Whole) as an altered scale over dominant 7ths. I know there are four maj triads embedded in each scale (along with other triads and arpeggios). I was looking for tips on cool ideas and licks so I can make this scale more musical. I'm also looking for ways to use it as an "outside" tool in improv.

Thanks in advance,
BYD

flathead
05-23-2005, 03:03 PM
Hi,

I'm getting a handle of the diminished scale (Half/Whole) as an altered scale over dominant 7ths. I know there are four maj triads embedded in each scale (along with other triads and arpeggios). I was looking for tips on cool ideas and licks so I can make this scale more musical. I'm also looking for ways to use it as an "outside" tool in improv.

Thanks in advance,
BYD



http://www.guitar9.com/columnist219.html Article by Mike Campese talks about using diminished scale for outside sounds

http://www.activeguitar.com/lessons/guitar/17-1.asp There are 5 examples here of diminished licks

http://www.guitar9.com/columnist331.html also here

Los Boleros
05-23-2005, 07:50 PM
Out of a diminished scale, you can extract two Dim7th Arpegios. Take B Dim Scale:
You can extract,
B,D,F,G#
and
C,D#,F#,A

In the key of A minor, you can use the first one over the E7 Chord and the Second one over the Am Chord.

sixstrings121
05-23-2005, 09:03 PM
so you can use Bdim7 over E7 and Cdim7 over Am? Dont know if thats what you meant.

Los Boleros
05-23-2005, 09:33 PM
so you can use Bdim7 over E7 and Cdim7 over Am? Dont know if thats what you meant.That is correct

Los Boleros
05-23-2005, 10:03 PM
Here is an example in the key of Dm. There are two riffs in this example. the second one has the Dim7 Arpegios. Since it's the key of Dm, I used Fdim7 over Dm and Edim7 over A7.

bluesyourdaddy
05-23-2005, 11:05 PM
Thanks, that's all good stuff. I'm trying to make sequeces with the four Maj Triads. Any ideas/licks in that regard?

bluesyourdaddy
05-23-2005, 11:44 PM
Here is an example in the key of Dm. There are two riffs in this example. the second one has the Dim7 Arpegios. Since it's the key of Dm, I used Fdim7 over Dm and Edim7 over A7.

So you getting a Minor7b5 with added 13 sound over the Im chord. Cool! Where'd you get that from? It's ideas like that which are less obvious.

SeattleRuss
05-23-2005, 11:59 PM
bluesisyourdaddy -

Are you looking for ideas on going "outside" over a static Dom7 goroove thing, or are you looking for ways to use the 1/2 - whole over a dom7 in a blues, right before going to the IV7 chord? what kind of music?

bluesyourdaddy
05-24-2005, 12:17 AM
bluesisyourdaddy -

Are you looking for ideas on going "outside" over a static Dom7 goroove thing, or are you looking for ways to use the 1/2 - whole over a dom7 in a blues, right before going to the IV7 chord? what kind of music?

I know about the blues use. I'm mostly interested in ideas around a static Dom7th vamp. I have been trying to come up with cool lines using the arpeggios built into the dim scale. I struggle sometime with making it musical though. Got any cool lines?

SeattleRuss
05-24-2005, 12:46 AM
Cool lines? Yeah, a bunch, although when doing this sort of improv, I'm not doing the 1/2 - whole thing exclusively. I really should write down some more stuff. I'll post a couple lines in a few hours....

SeattleRuss
05-24-2005, 01:04 AM
OK - here's one. Sandwich this baby in between a couple of bluesy licks over a static dom7 and you'll be the life of the party!

Los Boleros
05-24-2005, 01:24 AM
So you getting a Minor7b5 with added 13 sound over the Im chord. Cool! Where'd you get that from? It's ideas like that which are less obvious.Actually it's not a min7b5, It's a Dim7 arpegio from the Diminished scale.Over E7 Chord you would play B,D,F,G#. Over Am you would play A,C,D#,F#. Over Dm you would play D,F,G#,B Over A7 you would play G,A#,C#,E. Do you see the pattern here?

Los Boleros
05-24-2005, 01:30 AM
OK - here's one. Sandwich this baby in between a couple of bluesy licks over a static dom7 and you'll be the life of the party!Which Dom7 Seventh chord would you do that over?

SeattleRuss
05-24-2005, 02:12 AM
Which Dom7 Seventh chord would you do that over?

Over C7, Eb7, Gb7 or A7.

bluesyourdaddy
05-24-2005, 01:18 PM
Actually it's not a min7b5, It's a Dim7 arpegio from the Diminished scale.Over E7 Chord you would play B,D,F,G#. Over Am you would play A,C,D#,F#. Over Dm you would play D,F,G#,B Over A7 you would play G,A#,C#,E. Do you see the pattern here?

I do see the pattern. I was just looking at the notes as they relate to the Am -
A - root, C - m3rd, D# - b5 (enharmonically), F# - 13. It sounds good though so thanks!

sixstrings121
05-24-2005, 01:46 PM
Los, how do you know what Dim7 arpeggio to play over any chord? Is there some kind of rule?

bluesyourdaddy
05-24-2005, 01:48 PM
OK - here's one. Sandwich this baby in between a couple of bluesy licks over a static dom7 and you'll be the life of the party!

Nice! That is exactly what I was looking for. I came up with this one last night. Move it up in m3rds for a cool effect. Works over A7, C7, Eb7, & F#7.

Thanks Russ!

Los Boleros
05-24-2005, 02:09 PM
Los, how do you know what Dim7 arpeggio to play over any chord? Is there some kind of rule?There are several ways to look at it and get the same result. Here's a couple of easy ways:

For a minor chord, Take Am, just make it Adim7, or start on the third and make it Cdim7, or start on the b5 and make it D#dim7, or start on the sixth and make it F#dim7. Starting on the root is the easiest way to look at it.

For a Dom7 Chord, Take E7, Start on the b9 and make it Fdim7, or start on the Third and make it G#dim7, or start on the 5 and make it Bdim7, or start on the b7 and make it Ddim7.

Even though I gave you four ways to look at each chord, The end result is exactly the same thing since all four results are the same group of four notes.

sixstrings121
05-24-2005, 02:26 PM
Okay, thanks man, good stuff there.

bluesyourdaddy
05-24-2005, 03:44 PM
The Dim7 (H/W) has the Dom7, Min7, 7b5, Min7b5, and Dim7 arpeggios from the root (and up in m3rds). Along with the Maj Triad, there are endless options. I guess Coltrane was master of mixing this stuff.

I am trying to come up with some sick and tasty licks with this stuff so share 'em if you got 'em and I will do the same.

Los Boleros
05-24-2005, 07:26 PM
so share 'em if you got 'em.Here's a tasty mix of E Harmonic minor ascending to the Root, into cromatic down to a Cdim7 Arpegio and finishing with an Em Aeolian riff.

E|-8-11-12-11-10-9-8-11------8------------------------------------------
B|------------------------10------10---------------7-7-8-8-7------------
G|-----------------------------11---8-11--9---9---------------9---------
D|------------------------------------------9----------------------9----
A|----------------------------------------------------------------------
E|----------------------------------------------------------------------

GtrvVampyre
05-25-2005, 02:03 AM
This may sound stupid but i'v yet to know. Los, what are you playing in that take!? I'v always heard some of these snippets and always wondered what it is cause it sounds awesome. Is it a 12 string or some exotic acoustic instrument or what x.x.

Los Boleros
05-25-2005, 01:31 PM
This may sound stupid but i'v yet to know. Los, what are you playing in that take!? I'v always heard some of these snippets and always wondered what it is cause it sounds awesome. Is it a 12 string or some exotic acoustic instrument or what x.x.I play a Tres Cubano, or Cuban Tres. Here's a thread I started on the instrument. Tres Cubano (http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6961&highlight=tres+cubano) , You can also learn alittle more about it at my website. Click on my signature.

szulc
05-26-2005, 03:42 PM
I like to take ideas I would normally play in a minor scale and "warp it" by playing it in a diminished scale. Sometimes I'll do the same thing with whole tone scales. It seems to me to be a bit more "cartoonish" this way and really have the humor thing going on.
I also like to take pentatonic ideas and "warp" them by playing them with "wrong" notes. Or notes that normally fall outside of the given tonality. A lot of times I like to include the M7 and b5 in addition to all of the other notes in a minor pentatonic and give the same weight to them (not just as passing tones).

Danster
05-26-2005, 11:49 PM
Forgive the potential thread hijacking, but welcome back James! I've been missing your input here for a long time. Stick around will ya? :cool:

szulc
05-27-2005, 01:36 PM
Forgive the potential thread hijacking, but welcome back James! I've been missing your input here for a long time. Stick around will ya? :cool:
I was disapointed by the direction the forum had taken for quite a while. I am glad to see it is back on track. I have been very busy with my band (actually playing). I plan to visit more often. Thanks for your kind words.

Back to the discussion:
I like to use symmetrical fingerings with string skipping to create wide intervals with the diminished scale. Since the patterns repeat at the same fret on the g and e strings and d and b string (a fret lower) it is very easy to implement with string skipping.