PDA

View Full Version : Advanced Chord Comping?



Eccojedi
05-23-2005, 02:29 PM
I'm trying to figure out or learn some new chords to play with my left hand while soloing with my right hand, the normal arrangements are getting kinda boring to me. To be more specific, chords in the style of what ben folds does during the solo of One Angry Dwarf and 200 Solemn Faces, close set.

Malcolm
05-23-2005, 04:26 PM
Not familiar with One Angry Dwarf or 200 Solemn Faces, however, back cycling may help. Back cycling is a way of filling in boring chord progressions. Back cycling will lead you to a basic chord to use as a fill. The actual chord you use (D, Dm, D7, etc) is your choice -- what ever fits best.

Have three bars of the same chord? Back cycling will fill those long voids.
Here is how it works ---in a nut shell:
Think of the circle of 5ths laid out in a line:
C-F-Bb-Eb-Ab-Db-Gb-B-E-A-D-G-C

Suppose you have a chord progression like:
Cmaj7/// | //// | //// | Gm7 / C7 / |F ///|

And would like to fill in between the Cmaj7 and the Gm7 -- looking at the circle of 5ths -- D leads to G so insert a D. That may be enough and you can stop there, but let's go on -- then ask what leads to D? Well A leads to D so insert an A. What leads to A? E leads to A, so insert an E and what leads to E, well a B will lead to an E so insert a B. Now the neat thing about this --- Think of Gm7 as being a temporary dominant, and think only of the basic chord (the left hand side of the chord not the emblished right hand side) that D to Gm7 just gave you a ii-V and the C7 completes a ii-V-I (basic chord). Now think of the D as being a temporary dominant, that A just gave another ii-V and the Gm7 completes another ii-V-I. All you have to do is decide to leave them as a major chords or emblish - remembering some of our key theory - or enhance the sound -whichever - and come up with something like this.

Cmaj7/// | Bm7 / E7 / | Am7 / D7 / | Gm7 / C7 / | F /// |

or really work with the progression and come up with something like this:

Cmaj9 /// | Bm7b5 / E7b9 / |Am7 / D7b9 / | Gm7b5 / C7#9 C7b9 |Fmaj7 ///|

Now all that came from page 105 of the book Chords & Progressions for Jazz and Popular Guitar. I use back cycling, however, I'm still doing "baby steps" nothing like the above -- use as much as you like. Piano chords and guitar chords are still chords.

A Google using the key word backcycling (one word) will point you to several sites that will go into more detail.

Good luck.

P.S. That part about ii-V-I may be a little confusing if so forget about it. It's there automatically --- not necessary to understand it. Just another wonderful thing about the circle of 5ths and music.

Eccojedi
05-24-2005, 12:50 AM
Not familiar with One Angry Dwarf or 200 Solemn Faces, however, back cycling may help. Back cycling is a way of filling in boring chord progressions. Back cycling will lead you to a basic chord to use as a fill. The actual chord you use (D, Dm, D7, etc) is your choice -- what ever fits best.

Have three bars of the same chord? Back cycling will fill those long voids.
Here is how it works ---in a nut shell:
Think of the circle of 5ths laid out in a line:
C-F-Bb-Eb-Ab-Db-Gb-B-E-A-D-G-C

Suppose you have a chord progression like:
Cmaj7/// | //// | //// | Gm7 / C7 / |F ///|

And would like to fill in between the Cmaj7 and the Gm7 -- looking at the circle of 5ths -- D leads to G so insert a D. That may be enough and you can stop there, but let's go on -- then ask what leads to D? Well A leads to D so insert an A. What leads to A? E leads to A, so insert an E and what leads to E, well a B will lead to an E so insert a B. Now the neat thing about this --- Think of Gm7 as being a temporary dominant, and think only of the basic chord (the left hand side of the chord not the emblished right hand side) that D to Gm7 just gave you a ii-V and the C7 completes a ii-V-I (basic chord). Now think of the D as being a temporary dominant, that A just gave another ii-V and the Gm7 completes another ii-V-I. All you have to do is decide to leave them as a major chords or emblish - remembering some of our key theory - or enhance the sound -whichever - and come up with something like this.

Cmaj7/// | Bm7 / E7 / | Am7 / D7 / | Gm7 / C7 / | F /// |

or really work with the progression and come up with something like this:

Cmaj9 /// | Bm7b5 / E7b9 / |Am7 / D7b9 / | Gm7b5 / C7#9 C7b9 |Fmaj7 ///|

Now all that came from page 105 of the book Chords & Progressions for Jazz and Popular Guitar. I use back cycling, however, I'm still doing "baby steps" nothing like the above -- use as much as you like. Piano chords and guitar chords are still chords.

A Google using the key word backcycling (one word) will point you to several sites that will go into more detail.

Good luck.

P.S. That part about ii-V-I may be a little confusing if so forget about it. It's there automatically --- not necessary to understand it. Just another wonderful thing about the circle of 5ths and music.

I understand iiVI and a lot of theory, but this is the kind of stuff they don't teach you in classical theory composition classes!

Thanks!

Eccojedi
05-24-2005, 12:50 AM
PS. this may take me a bit to process.

Factor
05-24-2005, 09:57 AM
Excellent post Malcolm!

In addition to the circle of fifths, something I've learned is the tonal circle of fifths/fourths. That is the circle of fifths/fourths for each specific key.

Cmajor: Cmaj7 Fmaj7 Bm7b5 Em7 Am7 Dm7 G7
Bbmajor: Bbmaj7 Ebmaj7 Am7b5 Dm7 Gm7 Cm7 F7
Gmaj7: Gmaj7 Cmaj7 F#m7b5 Bm7 Em7 Am7 D7

Roman numerals: Imaj7 IVmaj7 viim7b5 iiim7 vim7 iim7 V7

Learning all of these with different voicings will help you out I think. In essence this is several diatonic ii-V-I after each other. You might want change some of them into secondary dominants as well. I can only add that it is important that any "inbetween" harmonization go well along with the melody, at least with slower songs.

Eccojedi
05-24-2005, 10:22 AM
Thanks Factor.

I really wish there were jazz classes at my school.

Factor
05-24-2005, 10:45 AM
Well, you can learn alot with a couple of basic books, good friends on IBM and dedication and study.

Once you understand the fundamentals, branching out theorywise becomes easier.

Eccojedi
05-24-2005, 11:17 AM
Well, you can learn alot with a couple of basic books, good friends on IBM and dedication and study.

Once you understand the fundamentals, branching out theorywise becomes easier.

I know my fundamentals. I'm just stuck a bit, on some chord substitutions and inversions. Another song which has the kind of chords I'm looking for is You To Thank by... yes, Ben Folds. The chords in the left hand during the solo, again.

Factor
05-24-2005, 11:21 AM
Oh I didn't mean to imply that you didn't know the fundamentals. Just that I've never taken formal jazz lessons and that you can learn a lot by yourself once you get a feel for the basics.

I'm sorry I can't help you with that song, I'm not familiar with it. Could you perhaps post a small snippet for the forum members with big ears? =)

Eccojedi
05-24-2005, 11:22 AM
Wait, are we allowed to do that?

If I do that, I'm gonna post little snippets of a few different songs that do this sort of thing. under 45 seconds won't get you in trouble I don't think.

Factor
05-24-2005, 11:35 AM
I'm not sure, but I think that a little snippet is allowed. Perhaps we can have some assistance from some of the more legally oriented members?

Eccojedi
05-24-2005, 12:01 PM
if you want to know the truth, I doubt ben will sue me.

Eccojedi
05-24-2005, 12:12 PM
Okay, By the time you guys will have read this, there will be two clips up, both Ben Folds solos. The clips are about 27 seconds a piece, so it's pretty legal, as well. For your enjoyment, I've faded them in at the beginning and out at the end. :D

You To Thank (from Songs for Silverman):
http://www.SdoubleL.net/YouToThankSolo.mp3
Get Your Hands Off My Woman (The Darkness Cover; from Super D)
http://www.SdoubleL.net/GetYourHandsSolo.mp3

I'm mostly interested in the atonal-sounding chords (a lot of tritones, I just can't really work out which and where!) used in the left hand, though there's some cool modal stuff going on in the right hand that I'm still trying to work out, some of them chromatic scales which merely involve me getting my finger dexterity up to par (I'm ALMOST up to the level of the right hand stuff in GYH, I just need to learn more!)

TheMusic
06-22-2005, 02:30 AM
hello Malcolm

I want to buy the book Chords & Progressions for Jazz and Popular Guitar who's the publisher?

Malcolm
06-22-2005, 12:29 PM
Chords & Progressions for Jazz & Popular Guitar by Arnie Berle
Amsco Publications, NewYork/London/Sydney

Amazon has it.

gersdal
06-22-2005, 01:03 PM
I have also noticed the books Voice Leading for Guitar : Moving Through the Changes by John Thomas and Modern Chord Progressions by Ted Greene at Amazon. Anyone have any knowledge about these books? Would they be redundant if I bought Chords & Progressions for Jazz & Popular Guitar by Arnie Berle?

TheMusic
06-23-2005, 02:19 AM
thanks

gersdal
10-27-2009, 06:03 PM
Malcolm... Have you done any progression in this area since 2005? I've just started a bit more seriously into this topic, and would appreciate you input. Or anyone elses for that matter ;)

Malcolm
10-28-2009, 12:28 AM
Perhaps --- Since 2005 I've had 7 eye surgeries (Graves Disease aka Thyroid Eye Disease) I'm happy to say it's in remission now. During all the surgeries I found myself inside a lot. Because of this I found time to take up keyboard (chord piano playing from lead sheet and fake chord), clarinet and the bass guitar. Sunlight was/is a problem and I've spent my time inside studying.

I think you would enjoy digging deeper into chord harmony, I still find it fascinating. If you have not already done so spend some time with what should you do to harmonize the melody line. That IMHO is the next step after back cycling. Back cycling just gets you part of the way --- that progression in my first post:

Cmaj9 /// | Bm7b5 / E7b9 / |Am7 / D7b9 / | Gm7b5 / C7#9 C7b9 |Fmaj7 ///|

Looks great but does it harmonize the melody line? We wrote it back then without even thinking of the melody line - tish, tish. Back in 2005 I was happy with just back cycling - Keyboard got me asking - does this progression harmonize the melody, i.e. what chords work with this melody. I know what chords move the verse structure through it's journey from rest, tension, climax, resolution and back to rest, but unless those chords also harmonize the melody we've not completed the task at hand.

If this is something you would like to explore Google can point you to several papers on how to harmonize the melody line. When that begins to jell be looking at how to write a melody line using the chords in your progression as a guide. The two go hand in hand it's a chicken or egg thing.

Good luck.

Malcolm
10-28-2009, 12:45 PM
Little more on that subject:

The melody line and the baseline should harmonize each other. This happens when we take into account the chords used should share some of the same notes found in the melody.

What is the bass guitar doing? Laying down a beat that holds the song together. How? Using chord tones in his bass riffs. Basic bass riff is generic and moves with the chords as they move within the song, i.e. R-5 or R-3-5-3. Just playing the root of the chord in play at this moment in the song accomplishes the grove, or beat, AND it still stays within the theory of harmonization as the root note shares a note from the chord and the chord should be sharing a note from the melody.

It all works together. I guess when I started keyboard - playing with two hands one doing chords and one doing melody this all came into focus.

My .02 cents.