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UKRuss
05-07-2005, 07:48 AM
Continuing with the idea of exploring a style of music, let's do some latin!

To get that proper feel to it I asked Rudy of Los Boleros to assist me with creating something close to the mark.

It's difficult to really create a proper Clave (Rudy may comment more on this in a reply. I think he had some nice web links to info on the Clave) wihout access to the proper percussion instruments or a very decent drum machine, so I gave it my best shot.

The first thing Rudy told me was the tempo is crucial to get the groove going, I think we ended up somewhere near the 155bpm mark.

The progression gives a verse/chorus type arrangement and a repeating chorus outro which gets fun! (Curse the file limit, as you'll hear it really sounds like we're just launching into some crazy solo trade offs when we have to cut things short;))

Dm A7 Gm A7 Dm makes up the verse and the chorus swings between Dm and A7.

Rudy says, "During the verse I used a melody that just kinda followed the chords. During the chorus which is Dm-A7-A7-Dm I used a lot of diminshed licks.Over the Dm I used Ddim and over the A7 I use Gdim. D harmonic minor and D melodic minor are also used over the A7. Melodic minor is used just once to ascend"

Again I'm sure of there any specific queries Rudy will be happy to expand in a reply.

Rudy plays two parts both on the Tres Cubano a rhythm part which you'll hear slightly panned to the right and features in both our version and the backing track. His solo parts are panned slightly left and will only feature in our version.

I play an acoustic rhythm part which is central and remains in the background. I follow the chords in a finger picking style.

My soloing adds perhaps a bit of contrast with the distorted Ibanez, doing my usual thing! I'm tending to stick with harmonic minor and straight minor in D.

I've posted powertabs of the harmonic minor scale and also a possible lick, not sure if I used it myself, if I didn't I should have, it's nice:D

My bass is sticking with root and fifth, again Rudy advising me that the bass tends to remain fairly simple. Its a bit back in the mix which is my fault really but turn up your volume. Which is a good idea anyway:D

The challenge is to explore the latin feel, emulate some harmonic minor type ideas or go for the strictly latin sound of Rudy's Tres!

Enjoy!

Guni
05-08-2005, 01:36 PM
2 guys joining forces .. this is great!

Thanks guys.

Factor
05-08-2005, 01:49 PM
Awesome! you guys continue to push the envelope of the Strictly series!

mattblack850
05-08-2005, 02:02 PM
Top Job, guys!!!!!

Russ, cheers for the sneak preview, I don't think anyone could call it cheating!!!!:p

Los Boleros
05-08-2005, 02:28 PM
I really enjoyed working on this one with Russ.

I've been asked alot about that diminished stuff. I've kinda gone crazy over it and have been working hard to find my own sound with it.

I kinda tried to go over-board alittle on this one to really prove a point, That you really can't over do it.:D

Also too, I tend to think of the Dm Chord as D Dorian. D Diminished has the B note in common with D dorian. Over the A7 Chord, the B must become Bb.

UKRuss
05-08-2005, 06:13 PM
Likewise Rudy, great working with you. It's excellent fun doing that kind of collaboration, I hope everyone enjoys playing over the backing track as much as we did:D

I think one of my first ever comments on IBreathe was that I dreamt of an "IBreathestock" event.

Now, it may never become a reality (but don't rule it out) but it may be a virtual possibility...

;)

satch_master
05-09-2005, 02:09 AM
wow, amazing stuff Mr Santana. Ill only post something if it sounds good, these strictly are getting really theory intensive, im struggling to keep up lol. Los Boleros, can you upload your take, id love to hear your playing.

Schmaus
05-09-2005, 03:05 AM
Satch, that was him playing :D and Russ.

Im gonna upload mine even though it has 100 + mistakes cause I need some pointers.
And how do you guys keep track of those chord changes cause I can't! Are you going by feel or counting the bars or mabye you just have it memorized so well you dont have to do either?

And ignore the intro to my take please....and those bad bends and slides.
I hit a couple bum notes.

satch_master
05-09-2005, 05:12 AM
D harmonic minor, its really just mindless shredd, sorry i cant play latin music, guess cause im not latin and its not in my blood like classic rock and metal.

I tried some melodies but i endedup shredding most of the time. Why not just call it strictly "latin shred" . lol. god , i suck, oh well.:) . as long as it doesnt hurt your ears to much.

and schmaus , dahh, im jokin, i know its russ and some other dude playing, its just a joke cause santana is a good latin influenced guitar player.

Schmaus
05-09-2005, 05:27 AM
That other dude WAS Los Boleros. Sorry I didnt make that too clear haha sry

UKRuss
05-09-2005, 07:58 AM
Schmaus, It's more the groove that possibly puts you off. The chord changes are on the bar...actually I think I missed one myself with my acoustic rhythm part...which is why I turned it down in the mix:D

The chorus part goes Dm A7 A7 Dm. Kind of mirrored.

but what ends up happening is this:

One bar of Dm two bars of A7 two bars of Dm and so on.

Dm A7 A7 Dm Dm A7 A7 Dm Dm A7 A7 Dm

Once you get that in your head it's OK.

Nailing the resolution in your runs can be tricky, but once you get the hang of the changes, you can start to "feel" that latin vibe coming through.:D

I'll listen to the takes later.

Satch, yes...just to clarify, The man we know here on Ibreathe as Los Boleros' real name is Rudy. Rudy was playing on the track we put together posted under the original post. You can't mistake that Tres!

ashc
05-09-2005, 08:24 AM
Umm.. Russ'n'Rudy that was sweet - I might have to make a fool of myself with this one too.. Isn't the internet wonderful!

Schmaus - I think you've got the chops there and a bit more time spent with the track getting a feel for where the changes come would get you more into the comfort zone. I sense that you are bit uncomfortable about what to play next (I know how it sounds because it happens a lot to me). Try this as an idea: Grab a piece of paper and right down the basic structure of the song (Verse : Chorus : Verse) then add under each section some ideas of what to use Lick A x 2 (don't be afraid of repitition) , Lick B etc. I'm not talking about composing, just getting a really rough structure in place and then when you have that you can tag some improv bits around the planned stuff. This helps me get this stuff together - and I need all the help I can get :D

Satch - lots of note man! Have you got some tuning / key / scale thing going on there. If you were hitting on some resolution a bit more that style could work over this.

Los Boleros
05-09-2005, 02:12 PM
Latin music is really very much like the music that ingwy plays, just a different beat and different instruments. Try to imagin it with a heavy double bass drummer and loud marshal stacks!:D Hey Ashc, thats some real good advice! Write it down and try to follow the changes using chord tones as much as possible. At first it will sound just educational but as you get used to following the chords, you will be able to sneak in a shred here and there. Keep up the good work guys!:p

Verse= :|Dm///|//A7/|Gm/A7/|//Dm/|:

Bridge= |Dm,C,Bb,A|

Chorus= :|Dm/A7/|//Dm/|Dm/A7/|//Dm/|:

Los Boleros
05-09-2005, 06:49 PM
I have my recording mics set up in my office right now so I took the liberty of adding a Bamboo Clave and a Djembe Snare tone to the backing mix.

P.S. I will be taking another crack at this one soon.:D

Schmaus
05-09-2005, 10:55 PM
Thanks alot for the advice guys, I think ill give it a few more hours of work. Ultimately this will improve me all around as far as improvising. Which is awesome.

UKRuss
05-10-2005, 07:20 AM
good stuff, schmaus and satch! got the licks, just need to nail the rhythm and your off i think.

Nice additional percussion Rudy, might have to have another blast over that myself:D

steve0192
05-10-2005, 09:07 PM
Had to have a go at this!

I very rarely use the harmonic minor, so I attempted to stick to it through out.

Steve

Los Boleros
05-10-2005, 10:12 PM
Had to have a go at this!

I very rarely use the harmonic minor, so I attempted to stick to it through out.

SteveVery nice Steve! It's obviouse that you are a real good Feel player. I like your vibe.

ashc
05-10-2005, 10:42 PM
Heres my attempt I don't mind telling you I found this one hard. For the verse I used arps to follow the chords and more or less what Rudy was doing and kind of have a theme. I overdubbed some more arps for the bridge. Over the chorus I noodled using some simple scale and chromatic ideas (earlier latin advice from the Los Boleros man!). Actually it was almost a shame recording anything over that Tres!

Hope this posts OK as there is something weird with my from home ISP today..

Los Boleros
05-10-2005, 10:48 PM
Actually quite nice! Your tone is clean, Bold and alittle abbrassive. I like that. You did exactly what I said and came up with a nice piece. Keep up the good work. you are on your way my friend.

ashc
05-10-2005, 10:51 PM
Big Thanks!! All that arps practice is finally paying off. I will go to sleep with a big smile now! :D

Schmaus
05-10-2005, 11:05 PM
That was an awesome song Ashc. The middle part was very gypsy :) .

JohnJumper
05-11-2005, 04:20 AM
Here is my attempt. I think is sounds strong initially but then I run out of fresh ideas... I think I stayed with the D Harmonic minor the whole time. Like the others have said - I am not very Latin. I listen to a lot of Al DiMeola and event tried to used part of one of his licks in there near the end but I am just not that good at this.

I found this very difficult the Chorus really threw me off! I keep feeling a resolve to some other chord in there and try to play something that would sound like a resolution but it just keeps moving back and forth. I think I am trying to move to a G7 which would be a ii-V motion. I think I hear this motion because I always jam over ii-V progresions that move down the neck in whole steps (i.e. Em7 -> A7 -> Dm7 -> G7 -> Cm7 -> F7 ...).

Los Boleros
05-11-2005, 05:33 AM
Well your influences really show Johnny. I liked it. Sometimes I think you are not aware that you can resolve the dominant chord by just going down one more half step. All in all pretty good.

steve0192
05-11-2005, 07:50 AM
Very nice Steve! It's obviouse that you are a real good Feel player. I like your vibe.

Thanks very much!

I kept getting lost in the chord sequence, I guess I should spend a little more time learning it, but it's much more fun to dive right in.

JohnJumper
05-11-2005, 02:13 PM
Sometimes I think you are not aware that you can resolve the dominant chord by just going down one more half step.

Can you explain what you mean here? I am not sure I understand what you said :confused: .

Los Boleros
05-11-2005, 02:39 PM
Can you explain what you mean here? I am not sure I understand what you said :confused: .
During the Chorus, the Chords are i-V-V-i

Dm-A7-A7-Dm

The resolve notes for Dm are D,F,A
The resolve notes for A7 are C#,E,G,A

Notice that that the D and the F can drop down just a half step to resolve into the V7 chord. The A can either drop a whole step or just stay the same.

I really liked your playing. It's just alittle constructive critisism. Keep up the good work.

JohnJumper
05-11-2005, 02:48 PM
I wasn't insulted I just did not understand. Thanks for the reply. Thanks too for spending the time to put this backing track together. It was fun...

Mateo150
05-12-2005, 01:18 AM
Listened to everyone's takes, wow, really nice. I went ahead and gave it a go today. The backing screams out for a high sustain guitar... but I don't have the gear for that :mad: ... LatinSteve did a good job with that. I probably would have done a similar type of thing, but anyway. Going with a 100% unprocessed sound on mine. A bit comedic if I do say so myself, usually I can keep a better groove, this one is a bit broken up.

Los Boleros
05-12-2005, 04:00 AM
Mateo,

Tone aside, you have a real kinda surfer sound. There were a few real kool moments. Like the first time through the decending chord bridge. That was kool:cool:

UKRuss
05-15-2005, 08:17 PM
Oh! Top job Steve, veeeeery nice!

Ash that was excellent my man, I realy enjoyed that! I loved the tone and yes, that arp practice is defintely paying off, great playing. I thought the tone was really Mariachi, if you know what I mean.

JohnJ, spot on. I think you worried yourself too much about the resolution issue and that comes across a bit, I thought it was excellent and without the worry you would have ripped the groove!

Mateo, not comedic, I loved those passing tones!! Sine real nice stuff in there.

Nice one guys:D

Mateo150
05-17-2005, 02:08 AM
Mateo, not comedic, I loved those passing tones!! Sine real nice stuff in there.



Awww..... I was going for comedic, guess I have to work on my scherzos a bit more.

UKRuss
05-17-2005, 05:47 AM
Scherzos? Is that like Naxos or Muzak?

It sounds like a spicy sausage...
:confused:

mattblack850
05-17-2005, 10:43 AM
"Scherzos" -- A big St Bernard dog, owned by a famous, but decidedly unfunny, comedian, and related to another called Schnorbitz!!
(The dog's called Schnorbitz, not the unfunny comedian!!!!)

Mateo150
05-17-2005, 04:22 PM
related to Chorizos, these are the funny slanted spicy spanish sausage... . hot hot hot!!!

tucker97325
08-25-2005, 02:36 AM
Hey Rudy, I broke out the classical for you on this one. I don't know why I didn't get to this one sooner. I really like what you guys did, and I tried not to stomp all over it, but the tres faded away in the mix down. Sorry, I'll work on it a little more, and try to bring the tres a little more into the foreground.

I tried to imagine how the "Good view" guys would do it. :p Don't think I came to close to that though.

EDIT: Tuckerelo2 is the same take, I just tried to bring the tres out to the front in a few places, as promised. (OMG) I kept trying to bring OUT the Tres, when all I really needed to do was push back my guitar! Gee, and I wonder why I'm not a sound engineer?????:D

Schmaus
08-25-2005, 03:27 AM
now tht was a nice take. Im listening to it right now. the notes really sound out well.

UKRuss
08-25-2005, 07:57 AM
Excellent excellent excellent FriarinoTuckerelo.

Much enjoyed, and unless my amateur ear is very much mistaken a most strickly harmonic minor take?

tucker97325
08-25-2005, 05:33 PM
Well thank you both.

To be honest, this piece gave me some trouble. I must have started it 15 times. I kept getting thrown off after the first couple of measures. Then I went back and actually "read" what was said about the changes, but by that time I was already pretty frustrated with it. So, I did one more take, and that's it. Listening to it now, I'm pretty unhappy with all the repetition I'm hearing in it (although it does seem to create a theme.) However, I'm not mentally up to making another stab (stab, stab, stab, stab) at it at the moment.

Apple-Joe
08-25-2005, 06:01 PM
Well thank you both.

To be honest, this piece gave me some trouble. I must have started it 15 times. I kept getting thrown off after the first couple of measures. Then I went back and actually "read" what was said about the changes, but by that time I was already pretty frustrated with it. So, I did one more take, and that's it. Listening to it now, I'm pretty unhappy with all the repetition I'm hearing in it (although it does seem to create a theme.) However, I'm not mentally up to making another stab (stab, stab, stab, stab) at it at the moment.

I listened to the original recording recording and that was great. It gave me inspiration. I've had a few attempts at several of the strictlies lateley. The next one will be Strictly Latin. Interesting atmosphere, and your phrasing suited the setting extremely well from what I can remember.

I'm going to download your upadated version too very soon.

Schmaus
08-25-2005, 11:22 PM
Listening to it now, I'm pretty unhappy with all the repetition I'm hearing in it (although it does seem to create a theme.)

Thats probably because you started it 15 times lol. After you play something that much it can get repetitive.

GtrvVampyre
08-26-2005, 12:14 AM
Los, i know iv probably asked before but...How do you get that sound that i always hear from you, are you using some kinda different instrument or what!? Awesome job on the solo guys and the backing track, sounds great ^.^.

Los Boleros
08-26-2005, 12:33 AM
Los, i know iv probably asked before but...How do you get that sound that i always hear from you, are you using some kinda different instrument or what!? Awesome job on the solo guys and the backing track, sounds great ^.^.I play the Tres Cubano. It's a Cuban acoustic guitar. You can see pics, videos and learn about it at this tread. http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6961&highlight=tres+cubano

GtrvVampyre
08-26-2005, 12:44 AM
Wow, it really sounds beautiful man, iv always wodnered what it was. The more i listen to this track and solo over it the more i apreciate latin music and love this backing track. Thanks again guys and hopefully if i can get my mic back i can record somthing but my aunt stole it for now >.o.

PS: just so i know if im going crazy. On the backing track (this may be in my head) I still hear a distorted guitar playing very faintly...is this just me or did you just like mute or put your solo really low on volume in the track and i might could still be hearing it? x.x....

Maby im hearing my destined solo playing out faintly to me? LOL...thats just freaking me out now..i think its russ's solo still faintly in the backing track...

tucker97325
08-26-2005, 01:07 AM
PS: just so i know if im going crazy. On the backing track (this may be in my head) I still hear a distorted guitar playing very faintly...is this just me or did you just like mute or put your solo really low on volume in the track and i might could still be hearing it? x.x...Don't worry, we're all crazy here.:D I don't think its Russ' solo track, but I do think he did have both a bass and guitar (strumming in the backtrack), along with Rudy's tres and the percussion stuff. Unfortunately, every time you resample something more gets lost. That's why I put up the second take. Everything is the same, but I tried to reinforce the tres in a few places where it felt like it was doing more of a lead part.

GtrvVampyre
08-26-2005, 01:24 AM
so noone else hears the distorted guitar solo in the backing track? o.o......

tucker97325
08-26-2005, 01:31 AM
so noone else hears the distorted guitar solo in the backing track? o.o......Hmmm, Like I said, it could be Russ' guitar in the background, or maybe you're mistaking the tres for a ditorted guitar. Check the original backing tracks and see if you hear it better. I used both the original backtrack, and Rudy's with added claves.

GtrvVampyre
08-26-2005, 01:36 AM
I mean, i hear it in the original, i dont remember hearing it in the new one...and it clearly sounds like a electric guitar climaxing and even when the backing track cuts out for a second (or los's tres does) i can hear it even better in the background it seems..

UKRuss
08-26-2005, 07:37 AM
No don't worry vampdude, you are correct.

I mixed our version first and then created the backing track by bouncing only the tracks I wanted in the backing to a stereo pair of tracks. So I simply cut Rudy's lead tres track and my lead guitar track and left everything else up.

Unfortunately, I left the volume up veeeeery slightly on my lead track when I bounced for the backing track mix so it comes thorugh in the background very slightly.

Apologies, I only realised it much later myself.

GtrvVampyre
08-27-2005, 03:22 PM
Lol, I was hoping it wasnt in my head :p

roel
09-29-2008, 10:17 AM
Hi! :) i like to identify the clave patterns in the audios, if i'm correct both "ibreathe social club.mp3" and "Russ and Rudy's Social Club.mp3" are both in 2-3 clave. :eek:

clave counting goes:
(i use 4/4 time coz it's easier for me, bold chars==clave sound)

1 n 2 n 3 n 4 n 1 n 2 n 3 n 4 n


nice improv solo on Russ and rudy's social club.mp3, i think the lead guitar's tone (the cleaner one)sounds like an indian sitar, against the background with the "dirty" tone guitar, sounds like indian/brazilian/rock fusion. :D

why not try using nylon string guitar or a more darkened toned overdriven electric guitar for the solo part? i think those would also be great.

for more info look for Nelson Faria's "The Brazilian Sound". There are some nice examples on chord substitution in the Bossa Nova Chapter and a bit of Samba Chord melody in the book. And also Bruce Buckingham's "Latin Guitar". :p

Cheers!

Los_Boleros
03-21-2009, 06:18 PM
Hey Tucker, This is Rudy, revived from the dead. I took a listen and man I love your sound. Nice job!

tucker97325
03-21-2009, 08:28 PM
Hey Tucker, This is Rudy, revived from the dead. I took a listen and man I love your sound. Nice job!

Well, thank you very much Rudy, I'm flattered. You know I always value your opinion. Although, I am a little hurt that it took 3 1/2 years before you listened to it. :( (Just kidding.)

You and me are both back from the dead. I haven't been doing much online stuff lately, since I hooked up with a small group of live musicians. Unfortunately, all they ever want to play is blues. I mean I like blues, but I also like a little variety.

What has kept you away for so long? Still performing around the Bay area?

Have you checked out Russ' "Cane Cutter" site yet? He's got some very nice stuff out there.

Los_Boleros
03-21-2009, 08:45 PM
Well, thank you very much Rudy, I'm flattered. You know I always value your opinion. Although, I am a little hurt that it took 3 1/2 years before you listened to it. :( (Just kidding.)

You and me are both back from the dead. I haven't been doing much online stuff lately, since I hooked up with a small group of live musicians. Unfortunately, all they ever want to play is blues. I mean I like blues, but I also like a little variety.

What has kept you away for so long? Still performing around the Bay area?

Have you checked out Russ' "Cane Cutter" site yet? He's got some very nice stuff out there.


Well the wedding season has begun and Los Boleros is booked for a wedding nearly every single saturday through the summer.

I am also the musical coordinator for -SALSA FRIDAYS- at a club in the heart of Fillmores Historical Jazz District so I there every Friday night, if not playing, I am directing, MC, DJ and even Sound Guy.

Add that to a full time job, I have been very busy. I am trying to take a little siesta right now before heading to this afternoons wedding.

Theres so much to do and such little time. :D

I will google Russ's site and check it out.

ciao,
-Rudy

http://www.LosBoleros.net/flyers/march20.gif (http://www.losboleros.net)

UKRuss
04-12-2009, 06:00 PM
WOW! Old school! Alright lads?

CC site been a bit quiet recently but by all means check me out at my links in the sig.

Good to hear from you guys again! Drop me a line!:D

lavanya
10-01-2018, 12:22 PM
Hi Sir, Thank you for all valuable Inputs.