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Heetteri
05-05-2005, 10:54 PM
Have you ever been 'the new guy' entering a band?
It's particularly hard when the other members have already "marked their territory" and you used to be the one in your previous projects to make all the decisions or the best jokes - and that particular position is already taken. The fear of non-matching chemistries and being the least talented in your ensemble.

Well, I sing. I'm reasonably good at it, if I say so myself. But by gawd, have I been training to reach that level! And only because of wanting to - well - "beat the boys", if you will. The vocalist is always the diva, the one who doesn't do anything but look good, right?

Am I the only one eternally struggling with these insecurities?

Mateo150
05-06-2005, 12:54 AM
Hmmm... strange brew in yer head there missy. I wouldn't worry about it too much, a strong female front person with a good voice is rare. Egomaniacal musicians are a dime a dozen.

rainy_sunny
05-06-2005, 05:50 AM
Well... I have such a situation.

A couple of months ago I've been invited to be a sampler in the new-metal band. They had 4 kinda complete songs and it was hard for me to make up my parts. Then we wrote 5th song together, and i got closer to these guys, now it's better.

In the end of May we perform in nearby town. It'll be their second performance, but first with sampler.

mmm... I don't feel myself like "less talented" of the guys: no one of them plays keyboards, I play guitar as good as most of them, I sing maybe better than vocalist (but i can't scream yet, which is essential for this band). Well, evern if i play with someone who's better than me, it's a great possibility to learn something from him...

How long you're in the band? I think these things will pass away soon.

Heetteri
05-06-2005, 07:40 AM
I've been in my current band for six months now, and it's getting better - of course. I still feel I have to somehow be just as good as them, though. Or even better. But I suppose it's just me, then.

Glad to hear it's normal for others too.

Factor
05-06-2005, 07:54 AM
Sadly, there seems to always be a certain element of competition between muscians in the same band. Some degree of competition is good I guess, but it can overshadow the community which one is supposed to feel in a band.

As you already feel, I'm sure things will get better when you've gauged the other bandmembers and connected with them in a musical way.

Heetteri
05-06-2005, 11:46 AM
It's not so much about me competing against them, but competing against myself in order to fulfil their standards, and to make the best possible music together.

We've clicked pretty well, I'd say, but since everyone else actually plays an instrument, it's very hard to compare us. I do make the vocals and the lyrics, so there's plenty of responsibility there as well.

Factor
05-06-2005, 11:58 AM
Hm, you make it sound like the voice isn't an instrument. It's the oldest and most versatile instrument humankind has ever played!

The want to create the best possible music together is a good feeling, as long as it doesn't make you too nervous. As a group, it's a good thing that one feels responsible and actively participating in the making of music.

I think you'll do fine. Have you talked to the other members about some of the feelings you are having? Talking with them about it may help as well.

Bizarro
05-06-2005, 01:14 PM
Communication and expectations are very important. In general it is good to be in a band where everyone is much more experienced than you so you can LEARN from them! :) Being the top dog means everyone is basically learning from you...

I know some bands that pay according to the versatility of the members. Sing and play an instrument, that's twice the pay as someone that just sings or just plays guitar!

forgottenking2
05-06-2005, 02:37 PM
I am by no means a religious fanatic (drink to much to even qualify as religious anything :D ) But I did found something somewhere in the bible (I told you I wasn't a religious fan :p ) where there's this teaching: In a very important dinner, take the place of the least honor, then someone will see you there and call you up and say, please come sit here you deserve more than just that seat (or something similar) and then you'll be honored. Because if you go ahead and take the most prestigious place at the table, someone higher up than you will come up and say, this is not your place, step down and then you'd be dishonored.

I believe this is true in all instances, from the literal (don't ever take the head of a table unless you're the host :D ) to simple matters like musicianship. It is often that those who say are great musicians build up great expectations (Neo Shredder comes to mind) and people tend to be a lot harsher to judge.

But back to the band issue. I don't take the role of leader upon myself. I simply offer feedback based on my past experience and what I believe will work, if most of the other members want to go with that then it gets done. But for the most part I just sit in and have fun with the music (there's enough power struggles and Ego trips at work and the rest of life to breing that kind of garbage to the band).

Bizarro made a great point. If there's a guy with a lot more experience than you (even if you think you're a superior musician) most likely that guy will be able to better lead the band.

I think Mr. (Steve) Morse put it beautifully when he said "When there's 5 guys in the band, you can only expect to get your way 20% of the time. IF you're lucky"

So my advice to you: Losen up a little bit, it's ok to make mistakes and to REALLY screw up. Just laugh it off. It'll make practices a lot more enjoyable and gigs a lot less stressful. And once things start getting tense (for one reason or another they will at one point) you'll keep your sanity as well.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Heetteri
05-06-2005, 05:57 PM
It's enough for me to know I handle my instrument to it's full potential, yes. I don't stress a lot, and could never hope to be the most experienced, even if I have been singing in bands since I was 13. In a way I suppose it's comforting to know someone's there to cover for me if I flunk.

Now that I think of it, my problem might very well be the fear of being regarded as a hangaround, who doesn't do anything but look pretty (if even that). You know, the "She's in her trailer picking which clothes to wear"-type.

I want to be seen as just as hard-working as the others.
Maybe I should have realized this in the beginning, before posting. :T

UKRuss
05-06-2005, 06:20 PM
Well, by the same token:

Nothing wrong with taking care of your appearance:D

One day you will be the most experienced, it is how things are.

In the meantime, enjoy!

Now what was it you were worried about?;)

forgottenking2
05-06-2005, 06:35 PM
Russ, didn't we have a talk before about sex appeal/stage presence?
Let's face it, crowds will like your music better if you look good. It's just how modern society works (so come on guys and gals let's hit the gym :D ).

Heetteri, you can use your youth and looks to your advantage, and later your experience will take that place ('cause looks will go away with age no matter what you do... sad but true). Instead of worrying of not having experience now and later of not having looks, you can take advantage of what you have now. :)

I'm in a possitive mood today... that's good.

mattblack850
05-06-2005, 07:42 PM
I am by no means a religious fanatic (drink to much to even qualify as religious anything :D )

In a very important dinner, take the place of the least honor, then someone will see you there and call you up and say, please come sit here you deserve more than just that seat (or something similar) and then you'll be honored. Because if you go ahead and take the most prestigious place at the table, someone higher up than you will come up and say, this is not your place, step down and then you'd be dishonored.




Hey Jorge, does this not make you a religious drinker???;) ;) :D



The point about the dinner is a very valid one, that as we travel through life it is surely better to approach it through humility than with arrogance??!!
Or making up for a slight lack in confidence with the ability to learn from those more expirienced??!!
Being the leader in the band is not always the best place to be, but having an equal say is important!!





Jeez, I sound like Tripi-taka, or Buddah, or Confucious or someone!!!!
I'm off to lie down and figure out Life, the Universre and Everything!!!

Los Boleros
05-06-2005, 07:43 PM
Welcome to Ibreathe.

Unfortunately there does exist a sort of competition in many bands.

Instilling a sense if insecurity onto you is a self defense mechanism for the insecurity that others may feel for themselves.

As Mateo put it, (but in my own words) "Musicians that play an instrument but don't sing, are a dime a dozen. Singers are worth their weight in gold."

You are in the position to be looked at as the front person (and most important person) by your bands audience. Be humble, yet confident with the band. Your time to shine is inevitable. They will definately feel lucky to have you.

Mateo150
05-06-2005, 07:47 PM
Hey Jorge, does this not make you a religious drinker???;) ;) :D

....Jeez, I sound like Tripi-taka, or Buddah, or Confucious or someone!!!!
I'm off to lie down and figure out Life, the Universre and Everything!!!

well better one of those guys.... have you gone up at communion and drank that Jesus guy's blood....:eek: He must have been loaded 24/7. No wonder he loved everyone.

mattblack850
05-06-2005, 07:51 PM
well better one of those guys.... have you gone up at communion and drank that Jesus guy's blood....:eek: He must have been loaded 24/7. No wonder he loved everyone.

My nickname at one of the jam nights I attend is............"JESUS"!!!!!!!!!
This is not a joke either!!!!!

Los Boleros
05-06-2005, 07:52 PM
23 is a wonderful age. Don't worry too much about age and looks, if you want it bad enough, you won't let yourself go. Sittups and jogging go along way toward keeping you young. Helps the singing as well.

Heetteri
05-07-2005, 09:32 AM
I definitely wasn't worrying about my looks, they're ok. I was worrying about being seen as a pretty face, nothing more. I'd much rather be appreciated for my voice and stage charisma than the way I look. I don't think I'd resort to dressing up like someone on MTV. That's just selling yourself.

But thank you for your supportive comments, people.

UKRuss
05-07-2005, 10:13 AM
We did Jorge, and you are right it goes a long way.

I see Heeterri's point now though, she's more concerned thats all she'll be seen as. but I think if you have the talent too, then it marries together nicely.

I mean it never did some of these ladies any harm at all. On the other hand I think true talent rises to the top whatever the physical delivery, (Mama Cass, Shawn lane etc. ) not the prettiests dudes in the world but talented and rightly recognised for it.

I like the vibe of the relpies in this thread too, humble and and all that.

I like the buddhist sentiment it always lies nicely with me. Having said that, if someone grips my ****, I'll tell them where to get off.

i think the worst situation to be in would be a brett michaels/CC DeVille scenario. You've had success, but you're entire life has become run on conceited,self opinionated image conscious bollox. Sad.

I find my fantastic looks and insane talent on the guitar help me avoid that...LMAO;)

mattblack850
05-07-2005, 04:03 PM
i think the worst situation to be in would be a brett michaels/CC DeVille scenario. You've had success, but you're entire life has become run on conceited,self opinionated image conscious bollox. Sad.

I find my fantastic looks and insane talent on the guitar help me avoid that...LMAO;)

I found this as well, I found that YOUR fantastic good looks and intrinsically adept string slinging keep me very humble and centred!!!!:D :D :D

On a serious note though, I think you'll find that if you have the talent, then people will see past the looks and take you on your own merit, those that don't and are only judging you on your looks are probably too shallow to appreciate the musical talent for what it is anyway!!!

Factor
05-07-2005, 06:54 PM
I definitely wasn't worrying about my looks, they're ok. I was worrying about being seen as a pretty face, nothing more. I'd much rather be appreciated for my voice and stage charisma than the way I look. I don't think I'd resort to dressing up like someone on MTV. That's just selling yourself.

But thank you for your supportive comments, people.

Unfortunatly this is something every female musician (but not just musicans)struggle with. Haven't we all heard singers introduced as "the beautiful ms X" or "the lovely lady Y". I hate this and wish for it to stop. It is derogatory.

It seems that women have to prove themselves twofold, first they must look good and then they must be good at what they do. Unfair I say.

Just keep doing your thing Heetteri and I'm sure people will recognize your hard earned skill.

Los Boleros
05-07-2005, 08:02 PM
Unfortunatly this is something every female musician (but not just musicans)struggle with. Haven't we all heard singers introduced as "the beautiful ms X" or "the lovely lady Y". I hate this and wish for it to stop. It is derogatory.

It seems that women have to prove themselves twofold, first they must look good and then they must be good at what they do. Unfair I say.

Just keep doing your thing Heetteri and I'm sure people will recognize your hard earned skill.To a certain extent, I believe the problem is there for males as well. This is why I am doing sit-ups and trying to eat alot healthier. I mean, anybody can play music with any kind of look but look at who makes it famous. We live in an image concious world, (thanks MTV:rolleyes: )

whopwooper
05-08-2005, 02:34 PM
Wow!...Band roles are really a tricky thing at times.....and sometimes you become blind to yourself and although you may feel or I might feel talented to a certain degree I often feel a bit vunerable being the main material maker in the band trying to keep everyone happy is somtimes a nightmare...:confused:

We have a new, or me/I personally new trouble/task on the horizon....as follows in short?

The jamm yesterday was majorly productive and me and the bass/drummer finnaly have come over our egos and can finnaly make really groovy music without the headache.......BUT BUT BUT.........we have a gutarist a lovley lass and so on..... from an indie backround.

TROUBLE-PROBLEM- is .......She knows naff all theory and has no intention of learning any as that would be seen as bieng told what to do....? the tones she plays sometime do actually fit in an unconventional way. but generally go against what we are playing immensley......Do not add to the music but take away from it......

Pleas guys .....How would you break that over to your fellow band person without bieng wishy washy or not to the point??? or too nice about it....

P.S. I've just stepped in this bit of this thred at a tricky point here......as I see your talking about female band roles...........Either way.... Honesty is the Key and in my example the fact that the female muso is letting a good few songs down......is not really the point...

the point is can all the band members make good music together and respect eachother without the mudd slinging match??? or someone not bieng realistic about thier own abilities/level of playing..

mattblack850
05-08-2005, 02:41 PM
the tones she plays sometime do actually fit in an unconventional way. but generally go against what we are playing immensley......Do not add to the music but take away from it......

Pleas guys .....How would you break thet over to your fellow band person without bieng wishy washy or not to the point???

I'd suggest recording a couple of your next jam sessions to see how they sound, sit down all together to listen to them then you can point out which parts don't 'sound' right, then you can 'all' make suggestions as to how to rectify the situation. This way no-one is playing the bad guy and it should feel like a band decision that these things need changing!!

whopwooper
05-08-2005, 02:54 PM
alright matty........What's that aboout yer satgnant mind slogan;)

Thank for that tip pal.....As you say no one wants to be mr Nasty but I think to stand there with a kind of cheesy grinn on your face as if to be non chalant or oblivious that every thing is hunky dory can get really quite crass...

if no one is speaking thier mind:(

( TO HEETTERI if your still watching.......all i can say is don't worry to much, just think of the band "CHICKS ON SPEED":p)we don'T play guitars) not true they do?!?!?!?:D

mattblack850
05-08-2005, 03:12 PM
alright matty........What's that aboout yer satgnant mind slogan;)

Thank for that tip pal.....As you say no one wants to be mr Nasty but I think to stand there with a kind of cheesy grinn on your face as if to be non chalant or oblivious that every thing is hunky dory can get really quite crass...

if no one is speaking thier mind:(

Nothing wrong with speaking your mind (and sometimes you have to!!), so long as it's done diplomatically!!
And secondly, no-one wants to be the one who brings any kind of bad feeling into a band situtation, at least this way everyone gets a say in what is happening and no-one is ostricised!


Oh, yeah, the mind slogan was a bit if a dark stage a couple of weeks ago, time for a change methinks!!!!

whopwooper
05-08-2005, 03:22 PM
Bieng Ousted/Ostrisized??.......I've seen this happen in some astonishily nasty/Childish ways before ..........YES!! diplomacy..... by all means but what when it comes to a deadlock???

......ie: Does not want to learn any theory:(/Chords:eek:/phrases:mad:/Riffs:mad:/&&&:eek:Lyrics/:confused:?
and it's taboo to even tell her the basic key or a few notes or chords...offer a helping hand when it gets bitten off almost on the spot......????:rolleyes:

either way a slowly oncoming tension.......Pehaps we should really record a session as to show whats really going on???:confused:

mattblack850
05-08-2005, 03:27 PM
Pehaps we should really record a session as to show whats really going on???:confused:

I think that this is the only viable option, at least everyone can be objective if you're all listening together. If everyone else is pointing to certain parts sounding wrong then it's not just one person pointing the finger!!!
As for the other point, I can't quite grasp why they don't want to know any kind of theory at all!!

whopwooper
05-08-2005, 03:40 PM
It's the punk ethic......I also don't grasp why someone can't take an offer of help...I'm a reasonable fella and if I anyhow suggest an idea or show how the thing is structuerd find that a daily compulsory inevitabillity in a band and listen to my guys suggestions and am pleased to see they listen to mine????
the pipe line is open.......

Strange folks or what...does any one know of anyone else who hate bieng shown a few tips as to how it/the song, might be best tackled dealt with-or solved.......SYMPATHETICALLY and softly:D

P.s. the particular member is in an other band which is an all female band and I think they were more a strickly fun and friend band which have really quite achieved alot in out local area.......Now!.. wanting to spread the old musical wings a bit.....came to our band ......


I still scratch my head as to the reason..for no theory (AT ALL, what so ever ever never never type attitude)

...EGO/PRIDE/? fear:rolleyes:

I''d tip on FEAR of not understanding or bieng able to play what is bieng offerd???

Heetteri
05-09-2005, 03:52 PM
( TO HEETTERI if your still watching.......all i can say is don't worry to much, just think of the band "CHICKS ON SPEED":p)we don'T play guitars) not true they do?!?!?!?:D

Right-o. :P Worrying is not an option, wondering and pondering are. I'm a stress-bunny at times.

FamouSomeday
05-09-2005, 06:00 PM
As I am very new to this forum, I won't pretend to have followed this thread from the beginning but I think I can add a bit at least.

I've been playing in different bands for quite a few years (well 5, but considering my ripe old age of 20...). In the most current one, our front person is a girl whereas I was the frontman of the old band.

What I have learned over time is that there is absolutely no difference between a girl or a guy leading a band just so long as the person has drive and a leadership oriented personality. What I guess I'm saying is I think you just need to have a bit more confidence in your talents and the rest will follow!

Rock On!

whopwooper
05-10-2005, 06:59 PM
Yes ...Belief in your own talent is important......I'm a bit in awe of what our recently formed band is starting to achieve, however although in real time we really can groov/funk out /rock whatever you will..........I still find a certain stiffness in the attitude of certain way of looking at things...

What's the bloke on about I hear you say......!?!?:confused:

I mean that in real time it's really quite relaxed but when it comes to midi recordin many boring attitudes are starting to overcast the flow a bit...
I love quite an abstract approach in at least a few parts of every song..in which you really do have to stick your neck on the line as not to copy anyone or try and do something a bit wild and experimental.......To every one else getting immpossible to nurcher them in to at least giving it a try....

With Datt said ....I find they are much to in a rush to knock something on the head for fear of not bieng able how to react to it...and unfortunatley using the Veeito pull the parachute quick method of working....and only sticking to the pretty standard stuff.:(........BOring boring .....

My attitude and I think a great attitude to have (I THINK --is to support the person that has the idea or at least give it a try...anything else for me is a bit to narrow minded.................ofnten the best ideas are the ones you least expect to work...AT FIRST!

Has any one else bieng in a band where it gets a bit to stagnant and no one wants to seem to take the leap and try really mental stuff just sticking to whats first on the shelf because it's more practical:o

Me myself:p... would wish the ((vieeto?!?(spelling tra la lah!;))) thing away as I find it's simply to unproductive.....Give and take is a must ...If an idea does not work then it's even obvious to the person who thought of it......If the others step back they will never know......plus nothing ever really happens...........

perth
05-24-2005, 03:21 PM
My nickname at one of the jam nights I attend is............"JESUS"!!!!!!!!!
This is not a joke either!!!!!

my mom used to keep a picture of jesus by her bed for the same reason.

Sage
05-26-2005, 03:19 PM
Just a question. Who would you rather choose, a band member that gets along with the band and doesn't give problems (e.g. late) but has to improve on his playing or a band member that gives problems (late, arrogant) but is really good at playing music?

forgottenking2
05-26-2005, 06:18 PM
Pick your bandmates as you would friends. Many times even musicians who have worked with bands before aren't a perfect match for another band... there's no definite answer to that question and you'll probably hear oposite answers coming from different members. The question is what do you want to get out of the band? Most of us want to keep it fun, and if one of the guys is a jerk... well it's kinda hard to keep it fun. On the other hand, if you just pick people out from your circle of friends (extreme example) you are going to have to deal with the musical limitations your friends have and simply be happy with the fact that you're getting together and having fun.

In a perfect world you would be able to find both... but this isn't a perfect world. What most people do is find some "happy medium" and work with that. I've been in both situations, and I'd much rather have fun playing than just do it "for the money" if that was what I wanted I would've stayed with science or computers.

The answer in this matter lays inside you... of course it'd be nice if the other bandmembers had a say in the situation ;) that would probably help you all make the right decision.

I hope this helps.

Mateo150
05-26-2005, 10:57 PM
tequilla

forgottenking2
05-27-2005, 06:41 AM
I just saw the religious drinker thing!! LOL funny thing. I don't drink as much anymore... I did when I was working a lot... still. I have a 6 pack every 2 weeks... is that bad? lol

mattblack850
05-27-2005, 01:47 PM
I just saw the religious drinker thing!! LOL funny thing. I don't drink as much anymore... I did when I was working a lot... still. I have a 6 pack every 2 weeks... is that bad? lol


A 6-pack??? Isn't that every womans dream, a guy with a 6-pack????:D :D
But how come it's only every 2 weeks??:p :p


I've got a Party-7, shame it's still in the can though!!!! (UK Old persons joke!!!!)