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GrantMe
03-23-2005, 08:59 AM
i just happend across a little recording of Jaco doing a chromatic little song and strating thinkn.......it seems the biggest part of music is resolution of an idea and swing (groove).........seems like everything takes a back seat to those two things......like i could play everything jaco was playin but if i was out of the pocket even alittle it would sound like utter crap mainly because im not jaco lol but also because it was a chromatic song and so by nature is very delicate. i mean alot of songs can be played badly but you still kinda get the idea of what there going for but with a heavy chromatic song it wont sound like anything but bad noise unless there is solid resolution and swing with conviction......just thinkn.......any ideas on this from you guys?

silent-storm
03-24-2005, 08:11 AM
Just to comment on the resolution thing you mentioned. There is a certain level that people throughout history have a achieved where they are so melodically advanced that they can slip, stretch and displace harmony at their will. The two that come immediatly to mind are Charlie Parker and Pat Metheny. I also think that Jaco's best stuff reaches into this as well. It just seems to get to the point where the chord changes no longer matter and they can resolve things when ever they want to because the lines have such forward momentum. Pat Metheny often talks about taking a line or an idea and just making it fit over a set of chords...play it with enough conviction and it doesn't really matter. Of course this is comming from a guy who knows how to properly resolve everything out there.

Do a strick analisys of Charlie Parker's Donna Lee and you will see what I'm talking about. He sometimes displaces resolutions by more then a bar and will just leave other chords out. It gets to a point where the song's underlying harmony is pretty much dictated by where his solo is going.

I've heard some killer modern guys do similar things, where the rhythm section will be so in tune with what the soloist is doing that the underlying harmony and song structure can be a messed around with. I can only imagine what's going on in their heads..."Oh, sure, we'll just jam on that chord for 2 bars instead of 1...oh, and we're gonna leave that one out, sure why not. I liked that section, let's play it again, but in double time"

Just when the light at the end of the tunnel seemed to be getting a bit clearer....

GrantMe
03-24-2005, 09:14 AM
wow great reply thanks...... And I might have been right if it wasnt for that pesky Metheny. lol
great to learn man thanks

GrantMe
03-24-2005, 09:23 AM
so are you saying that whatever progressions the band makes is decided by the overall feel and direction the soloist is moving? The band is responding that closely to what the soloist is doing and not leaning on a foundation other than the fact that they better be listening hard? lol

silent-storm
03-25-2005, 02:05 AM
so are you saying that whatever progressions the band makes is decided by the overall feel and direction the soloist is moving? The band is responding that closely to what the soloist is doing and not leaning on a foundation other than the fact that they better be listening hard? lol
Well in most cases we're talking about the top of the top, so instead of listening hard, I'm more inclined to say that their ears are so insanely good that they just automatically know everything that is going on. I've heard many sax players not call a tune, they'll just start soloing before they play the melody and the rest of the band will just know what chord progression and song they are soloing over. I was actually able to figure it out one time. The sax player started soloing and about 10 seconds later I said "holly cr@p that's Giant Steps" and sure enough about 8 chorus's later the rest of the band joined in and the melody started....very strange experience.

GrantMe
03-25-2005, 02:15 AM
Thanks for the input guys, interesting stuff to learn....

ya know speaking of songs...i have never learned one...lol....if studied them but have never played an entire song....thats so bad of me. lol

silent-storm
03-25-2005, 02:18 AM
I don't listen to much Methany, I can never find too much of his stuff that I really enjoy. Have you heard anything that he did with Michael Brecker? Brecker put out 3 CDs with Metheny and I think Metheny put out 1 with Brecker as well, but I'm not sure. Personally, I think it's the best playing both have put out on record. When I saw Brecker a year and a half ago every song he played except for Giant Steps during the encore was off one of those CDs.

Plus if you ever get a chance to see Metheny live do so. I wasn't sure what to think when he came to town and didn't really want to spend a lot of money just to check a big name off my list of people I should see. But a friend told me "No matter what he puts out on record, he is absolutely killer live." And man was he ever right. Even some of his cheesy PMG stuff was amazing.

GrantMe
03-25-2005, 02:23 AM
I felt the same way about seeing Metheny.....decided to go anyway a couple of weeks ago and was really pleased ..i loved it.

Sir Speedy
03-25-2005, 03:35 AM
i just happend across a little recording of Jaco doing a chromatic little song and strating thinkn.......it seems the biggest part of music is resolution of an idea and swing (groove).........seems like everything takes a back seat to those two things......like i could play everything jaco was playin but if i was out of the pocket even alittle it would sound like utter crap mainly because im not jaco lol but also because it was a chromatic song and so by nature is very delicate. i mean alot of songs can be played badly but you still kinda get the idea of what there going for but with a heavy chromatic song it wont sound like anything but bad noise unless there is solid resolution and swing with conviction......just thinkn.......any ideas on this from you guys?
That's a really good point , not everything is played well , sometimes it's good enough , but you can tell a soloist is noodling for an idea an then plays the complete idea after a while . i heard a version of the Miles tune "Well you Needn't" that was like that , the rhythm is simple it doesn't really change keys even , but they'll let loose and experiment with it , maybey it's a monk tune or a Mile/Monk tune , something to that effect ...:D

If you know the difference that's probably half the battle with listening to Jazz Raido stations . Sometimes i hear one particular DJ play the worst blues songs , that he relates to Jazz some how , and i think well Johnny Winter is a heIl of a lot better than that ... Blues is Jazz in a way , just a bare bones basic kind of way ... John Hammond Orchestra is great , but some of these guys , can't play thier way out of a paper bag .. i f Jeff Beck or Johnny Winter can do it better , they have a problem :D
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GrantMe
03-25-2005, 04:01 AM
yeah...im for sure getting more and more in line with the idea of swing and groove cause its what makes music music and not technique and knowledge.

KirkLorange
04-14-2005, 07:01 PM
yeah...im for sure getting more and more in line with the idea of swing and groove cause its what makes music music and not technique and knowledge.
Amen!

Kirk

debaser
04-14-2005, 08:14 PM
A good band would communicate like this, both ways not just the soloist. I don't listen to much Methany, I can never find too much of his stuff that I really enjoy (My current fav. artist at the moment is Django - gimme some melodically driving Methany songs). To a lesser non-theory bound extent, Hendrix type of stuff is sometimes not the most pleasent of sounds but he plays through and does it with great conviction.

In my opinion, the best Metheny stuff is when he plays standards. I'm not sure if that's a popular opinion or not - probably not. Anyway, I'd suggest Question and Answer or Rejoicing as two highly recommended Metheny albums. Question and Answer is almost all standards, and Rejoicing has a couple of bluesy Ornette songs that I really like his playing on.