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Nero_Angelo
01-06-2005, 02:45 AM
hi, i come to this forum because i need help. I have played for 3 years now and about all ive done is worked on technique, and very very little actual music. i can play pretty fast but only if someone gives me the music and i look at it through tabs.

i dont know what any of the things you guys say means! circle of fifths? gahh..

i dont understand so much of it!

i thought it was all just scales and such, and thats not the case

i learned the minor pentatonic scale from a website but now there are modes? what are modes?

its a bit overwhelming, i dont exactly know where to start, i wanna get good at improv and actually understanding what im playing instead of bending around to see what sounds good.

Malcolm
01-06-2005, 03:41 AM
Click here for a music dictionary (http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/)

That and a Google or Yahoo search may be your first step. Trying to answer what a mode is ---- is probably going to shoot right over your head. We need to know how much you already know.

Notice the Articles button upper left side of the screen. Check out the articles on modes and then ask your questions.

If you can be a little more specific I know the forum will get back in touch with you with answers.

debaser
01-06-2005, 03:49 PM
I strongly recommend getting a good teacher. Most of us didn't learn this stuff on our own.

fastfingersfunk
01-06-2005, 09:12 PM
understanding modes is actually very easy, i will show you the basic concept of them, but don't even worry about modes until you have the five basic pentatonic patterns and the standard major scale memorized. without knowing the major scale, modes wont be of any help.

memorize the seven basic modes IN ORDER: Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aolean and Locrian.

notice that there are seven notes in a major scale and seven modes. in order, the C major scale is C, D, E, F, G, A, B.

ok, here's how easy it is:
if you start that scale on C (the first note), it's the Ionian mode (first mode).
if you start that scale on D (the Second note), it's the Dorian mode (second mode).
if you start that scale on E (the third note), it's the Phyrgian mode (third mode).
if you start that scale on F (the fourth note), it's the Lydian mode (fourth mode).
if you start that scale on G (the fifth note), it's the Mixolydian (fifth mode).
if you start that scale on A (the sixth note), it's the Aolean mode (sixth mode).
if you start that scale on B (the seventh note), it's the Locrian mode (seventh mode).

it's as simple as that. modes are just the degree of the scale you start one.


if somebody says they are playing an E Dorian mode, they are just playing the D major scale, but starting on the second note (because Dorian is the second mode).

one last thing to memorize: MAJOR-minor-minor-MAJOR-MAJOR-minor-diminished. these match up with the modes.

Ionian is MAJOR
Dorian is minor
Phrgian is minor
Lydian is MAJOR
Mixolydian is MAJOR (dominant)
Aolean is minor
Locrian is diminished

again, none of this will matter unless you learn the major scale on the neck.

go here to memorize the five pentatonic shapes (top of page): http://www.dansguitar.com/lead.htm

go here to memorize the Major Scale / Modes:
http://www.fidosrevenge.com/guitartheory/modes.html

Factor
01-06-2005, 11:10 PM
I have a few things I would like to point out.


understanding modes is actually very easy, i will show you the basic concept of them, but don't even worry about modes until you have the five basic pentatonic patterns and the standard major scale memorized. without knowing the major scale, modes wont be of any help.


This is true, well explained.



memorize the seven basic modes IN ORDER: Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aolean and Locrian. notice that there are seven notes in a major scale and seven modes. in order, the C major scale is C, D, E, F, G, A, B.


This is a Derivative approach to modes, i.e. learning the different modes derived from the same major scale. I think one should also learn the Parallell approach, i.e. learning the different modes and their intervallic makeup from the same root note (D ionian, D dorian, D phrygian and so on).



if somebody says they are playing an E Dorian mode, they are just playing the D major scale, but starting on the second note (because Dorian is the second mode).


It doesn't matter which note one starts on. The mode is determined by the scale and how it relates to the underlying harmony.

If you play E F# G A B C# D E (E dorian), you play the E Dorian Scale in one octave. You did not play the E Dorian mode, as there was no underlying harmony, suggesting a dorian mode (an Em7 chord for example).

Great links by the way.

Here's one of my favorite links: http://www.zentao.com/guitar/theory/

Dommy
01-08-2005, 06:30 AM
Especially for this guy, I would be extremely reluctant to even mention modes...

So, you have played for 3 years, just working on technique...to play an instrument...to play music...but you haven't played any music?

This just seems like going to the gym and only working on your right bicep for 3 years because when somebody says 'show me your muscle,' you whip out your right bicep and show them how big and strong your muscle(technique) is, while the rest of your body(musicianship) is sorely lacking.

Boggles my mind that its nearly only guitarists who can accomplish this baffling feat of practicing technique to the exclusion of musicianship.

I recommend now just learning almost completely from ear and not bothering with 'advanced theory' so to speak. When you come to that point in your musical development where you find your vocabulary limited by your technique and not by your ear, seek out music theory and use that to help you develop your sound further.

Maarten
01-08-2005, 11:13 AM
I wholeheartly agree with Dommy. Find some music you like and go play it. Better yet, find some music you like because it sound's nice, not because it has impressive guitar playing.

Dommy
01-09-2005, 04:08 AM
Its something I'm trying to work towards myself, a greater connection between ear and fingers. If you have to actually THINK about it while you are playing, you haven't done your work in the woodshed. I almost never do any 'pure' technical exercises anymore, in the sense that they are purely mechanical and not very musical...its just a matter of selectivity. If you do those exercises in all those permutations to gain the ability to do what you wanna do, but you never end up doing it, whats the point? I'd rather use musical examples as springs for my technique to take off.

Oh yeah, and modes should become apparent after familiarising yourself with the major scales in all positions all over the neck. I also recommend not learning them as "modes," but as chordscales, or learning them from 2 to 2 (dorian) 6 to 6 (aeolian) 5 to 5 (mixolydian), just because it will make transferring ideas a lot easier if you want to run a motif through the modes, or if you want to use upperstructures or polytonality.

satch_master
01-10-2005, 03:44 AM
instead of being so lazy and selfish and expecting us to spoon feed you everything get your *** on a google search and find some stuff and theres heaps of sites that can help you and assist you. only post if u got a direct question u need help with otherwise its a time waster

try these sites
www.cyberfret.com
www.soundme.com

and this site 2!

Wylde fan
01-10-2005, 04:21 AM
Dude, cut him some slack. He came here for help. It's his first post. No need to be so harsh.

Let me be the first to say, welcome to iBreathe, hope you enjoy your stay.

Anyway, I wouldn't mention modes yet, they aren't going to do you any good. Do what Dommy said, some damn sound advice right there.

fortymile
01-10-2005, 08:02 AM
oh man,

i would never mention the derivative approach of modes to a beginner without explaining that what defines a mode is the interval makeup. that caused me about four years of confusion.

phantom
01-10-2005, 10:01 AM
hey nero_angelo

first if all, welcome to ibreathe!

second: don't worry too much.

in the days of the internet there is so much info about every topic available that it can easily overwhelm you and that is contraproductive.

one who can give you canalized info would be a teacher, or aking a detailed question here for example.

as you have seen with your post here, you'll get different opinions always, wich, i am afraid, does not really help you.

so don't worry about all of the things there are on the theoryside of music. rather find out what your goal is and then do the small steps that are necessary to get you to that goal.

so... what are your goals!?
what do you like about your playing, and what don't you like?
have you ever recorded yourself? how does it sound like?

Shadows
01-10-2005, 03:30 PM
Dude you are going about this the wrong way.

You admit that you have been too obsessed with technique and that you want to learn how to solo. You acknowledge the problem but you fail to see the solution. You are talking about modes, a thing that you obviously don't know what it means but you have heard someone say that "modes is good to know when you're soloing" sure they are but learning modes doesn't make you good at improvising. It opens new doors in your playing but only when you already know how to solo. What you need to learn is how to solo, how to imagine melodies in your head and instantly know how to play them on the guitar. Learning a new scale doens't make you any better at soloing. What you need to work on is timing, phrasing and imagination. You have to be able to play whatever comes up in your head.

Regarding the modes. Alot of people here seem to explain the modes as something technical it's always like this someone asks about modes and they get a technical explanation. That really doesn't help that person to become a better musician. What they need to know is that modes are actually moods of music. A certain mode has a certain sound to it. The major and the minor scale are actually modes (moods) of the same scale. The major scale is the happy mood and the minor scale is the sad mode. Now this is where it starts to get technical. Because we have seven different tones we also have seven different modes. All with different sound qualities. The lydian mode for example is a somewhat ethereal, somewhat dreamy mode. The mixolydian is a more rock oriented mood (perhaps because it's the only "major" scale with a dominant seven) and the dorian is a more latin type mood, kinda like what Carlos Santana use to play.

Anyway the most important thing to know is that musical modes are actually moods of music. Sure it's good to know that the D Dorian scale contains the same notes as the C Ionian but if you don't tell the poor man that they sound different what the **** is he going to use them for?

Also as someone pointed out there are no real "modal" scales. The mode is defined by the notes you play above a certain harmony, a certain chord progression.

debaser
01-10-2005, 04:03 PM
Shadows- I think the trouble with the word "mood" is that its so subjective. I already have issues with your definition of mixolydian as a "rock" mood, and dorian as a "latin" mood. That isn't the way I think of either of them.

You can point to a situation where a certain mode might be applicable in the technical sense, but the way sound is interpreted as emotion by a given individual can't be defined in any standardized way.

phantom
01-10-2005, 04:09 PM
ionian, the "official happy mode" can sound creepy as hell.

we shouldn't make this thread ANOTHER mode discussion thread!

that kid got a different prob and having 5 different explanations about an issue that is not relevant to him is not likely to help him i guess. :(

Shadows
01-10-2005, 04:14 PM
Shadows- I think the trouble with the word "mood" is that its so subjective. I already have issues with your definition of mixolydian as a "rock" mood, and dorian as a "latin" mood. That isn't the way I think of either of them.

You can point to a situation where a certain mode might be applicable in the technical sense, but the way sound is interpreted as emotion by a given individual can't be defined in any standardized way. Yeah sorry about that I didn't have enough time to explain it thorougly, had to take a run before the sun went down. Of course the word "mood" is subjective but that's simply because taste is subjective. If I tell you that a dish is "spicy" or that it tastes sort of "mellow" what would that mean to you? Probably not the same thing as it does to me. However, my point was the modes represent different types of sounds, different moods and that it's not just a technical thing. If I want to describe something that is subjective then I have to use the words that makes the most sense to me. Sure a "spicy" dish isn't a perfect explanation but it's alot better then saying that it consists of 80% carbohydrates, 12% fat and 8% protein. That wouldn't tell you anything at all about the "taste" of the dish.

I hope this makes more sense now. I just wanted to give my point of view on this discussion. I wasn't trying to describe the moods of the different modes I just wanted to tell him about the non-technical aspect of them. The fact that they sound different from one another. I hope that you don't want to argue about that?

debaser
01-10-2005, 04:43 PM
I agree completely that the modes all sound different from each other.

I also agree with phantom that the last thing we, or the OP, need is another thread about modes. They are over-exposed as it is.

Maarten and Dommy have both given great advice on this topic. Developing your ear is the surest way to improve your improv skills. If that isn't working out for you, get a teacher.

Shadows
01-10-2005, 05:09 PM
Sorry about that. After all I haven't been here for that long so I don't know what kind of posts we "don't need any more of".

If there already was a post explaining this then why did three people try to explain it instead of someone just posting a link to the old topic?

debaser
01-10-2005, 05:52 PM
Sorry about that. After all I haven't been here for that long so I don't know what kind of posts we "don't need any more of".

If there already was a post explaining this then why did three people try to explain it instead of someone just posting a link to the old topic?


I didn't mean to sound critical of you - I was just making an observation. This place is great but some members are suffering from a misplaced mode obsession. I'm really not sure why topic came up here, since the OP wasn't even asking about it, and it sounds like the last thing he needs right now is more theoretical terminology that he doesn't understand.

fortymile
01-10-2005, 08:11 PM
modes are going to arise here for eternity. every time someone new joins the board. ya'all might as well resign yourselves to it, no?

lol

curiousgeorge
01-10-2005, 08:32 PM
It's A LOT easier to understand the modes if you have the basics down first. I wouldn't worry this kid about modes for at least a year.

Shadows
01-10-2005, 08:42 PM
I seem to remember someone on Prolobe who had attained level 36 that called himself Curiousgeorge would that by any chance be you?

curiousgeorge
01-11-2005, 10:16 PM
No, I have no idea what Prolobe is, much less how to get to level 36! (??????????)

Shadows
01-12-2005, 06:29 AM
OP: Sorry about this HUGE off-topic post...

CuriousGeorge: It's an absolute pitch training program on the internet, level 36 is the highest possible level. But that was not you then?

curiousgeorge
01-12-2005, 01:30 PM
OP: Sorry about this HUGE off-topic post...

CuriousGeorge: It's an absolute pitch training program on the internet, level 36 is the highest possible level. But that was not you then?

Nope, sorry!, Sounds interesting though. What's the website? I'd like to further my eartraining.

phantom
01-12-2005, 01:32 PM
http://www.prolobe.com/

google is your friend, as bizzaro says ;)

wren
01-12-2005, 02:11 PM
i have been playing for a little over a year i think we all find it very confusing at first check out your local colleges i do a part time course one night a week it is very useful to be able to ask an experianced player about the things you dont understand and if you even need to it is very cheap to do a part time course and some people depending on cercomstances of course get it free good look and remember rome wasnt built in a day all the advanced guitar players ive ever met have been playing without a break for at least 15 years keep smiling keep playing and when you get over that next herdle be proud its all about hard work and determination at first and guitar is one of the hardest instroments to learn love wren:D

phantom
01-12-2005, 02:17 PM
wren,

i appreciate your contributions at ibreathe,
to make it easier for all to follow your thoughts,
you could add little things like ".", "!" and "?"
a quick push on the "return" button would make your posts
more readable as well.
thanks for your help! ;)

wren
01-12-2005, 02:21 PM
Sorry about that.I suppose i was rushing and i didnt realise.I hope this is better sorry again and thanks for letting me know love wren

phantom
01-12-2005, 02:24 PM
no worries and no hurries..
we are here 24/7 ;)

thanks for being an active member!

Chim_Chim
01-12-2005, 10:22 PM
its all a bit overwhelming
It's supposed to be.It's sort of a "trial-by-fire" which is required if you want to become a serious musician.Those who endure it and come out the other side go on to have some success with it.

If it was easy,everyone would be a great musician.But it's not easy and therefore only some people are dedicated enough to push onward and do what it takes to become good or great players.Great players fight through it all and persevere to become great players.They paid the cost to be the boss.If you want to be a good or great player then you have to pay your dues too.That means you've got to work at it until you reach the pot of gold.Take it in small chunks and set short term goals and achieve them.That's the best way to approach it.If you look at it as a mountain in front of you then you'll be overwhelmed and intimidated.

--> small victories....that's the key!

Nero_Angelo
01-14-2005, 12:58 AM
thanks for replying,

and i kinda lost the website here for a while, and thats why i havent said anything back in a while.

see, i wasnt asking all about modes, i guess i was asking what a bunch of technical things were, and then another semi argument about modes came up.

well i understand i should start small right now like learning the major scales and whatnot.

but what do you mean by ear training? what should i do for that?

phantom
01-14-2005, 08:14 AM
hey,


for eartraining you could check this out (http://www.good-ear.com/)!

being able to hear and name intervalls, scales, chords, .. is a mighty weapon in the land of (musical) confusion.