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UV428
06-23-2004, 08:31 AM
How do you learn what chords to play over a scale.
I recently learned a Gypsy scale.
I play it and go through three octaves while improvising a melody.
As I play through the scale, I strum a chord on a given note where, to me, the chord change should take place. But it sounds like I'm playing the chord in a different key.

Here is a tab of the gypsy scale I found. I play an octave below and above this diagram.

--------------4-5
----------5-6
----4-5-7
--7
------------------
------------------

Can someone explain how they would do this?

ChrisJ
06-23-2004, 11:54 AM
Anytime you run across a new scale and you want to learn how to use it, you have to harmonize it. This means build chords from it. I'll do a quick harmonization for you.

This is the scale from your post (by the way, it is a harmonic minor scale):
A B C D E F G#

If you stack the notes of the scale in thirds you can build seven chords, one for each note of the scale. Look at the scale above and stack the 1st, 3rd, and 5th notes:

A C E. This is an A minor chord.

Next do the same thing from the second note:
B D F. This is a B diminished chord.

From the third note, C:
C E G#. This is a C augmented chord.

And so on:

D F A = D minor
E G# B = E major
F A C = F major
G# B D = G diminished

These are the seven triads that match your scale. The scale your are working on usually gets used over the E chord.

If you stack four notes rather than three, you'll get 7th chords:
Amin(maj7)
Bmin7b5
Cmaj7#5
Dmin7
E7
Fmaj7
G#dim7

Once again, the most common chord to use would be the E7 chord.

Heavy Metal cats tend to play this scale over an E - F chord progression.

-CJ

UV428
06-23-2004, 03:22 PM
Thanks CJ.
I can't comment on it right now, to me thats a lot to swallow. I'll be back though. Thanks again. :)

Malcolm
06-23-2004, 06:33 PM
That was one of the better explinations I've seen.

UV428
06-23-2004, 07:42 PM
CJ.
You explained it very well.
I did what you suggested with a few other scales and it really works great.
Thank you for the easy to understand explaination. :)

wiechfreak
06-24-2004, 12:24 AM
I am wondering now what notes or scales would sound good over a chord progression. The one im specifically looking for now is

C, C7, C6, G, G7, G6, E I have tried different scales but not knowing much theory, i doidnt know where to start to figure out what'd sound good over them. You explained the other thing so well even i understood so i figured id post it here :p

szulc
06-24-2004, 11:55 AM
Ask yourself:
What scales do each of these chord belong to?
C (I,IV or V), C7 (V), C6 (I or IV), G (I,IV or V) G6 (I or IV) E (I,IV or V)
The above analysis is based strictly on Major Scales you could also analyze it based on Melodic or Harmonic Minor scales.

wiechfreak
06-24-2004, 04:41 PM
to me that was like a foreign language lol. Guess i better start working on some theory

Zatz
06-24-2004, 06:18 PM
Guess i better start working on some theory

You must be kidding :D

wiechfreak
06-25-2004, 01:38 AM
heh wel;l i understood what CJ said but before that made NO sense t ome. Anyone know any good theory books for a beginner on theory?

wiechfreak
06-25-2004, 01:40 AM
Ask yourself:
What scales do each of these chord belong to?
C (I,IV or V), C7 (V), C6 (I or IV), G (I,IV or V) G6 (I or IV) E (I,IV or V)
The above analysis is based strictly on Major Scales you could also analyze it based on Melodic or Harmonic Minor scales.
Any way you can explain that to me? I haven't worked on much theory so i have no clue...if not any books to suggest on beginner's theory?

szulc
06-25-2004, 02:49 AM
I ii iii IV V vi Viio
Are the symbols for the seven chords of the Major scale.
The capital Roman Numerals are major chords that occur on the Root, Fourth and Fifth tones. (thus, I , IV or V)
Dom7 (like C7) chords can only occur on the Fifth tone (thus, V).
Major 6th chords can only occur on the other two Major chords (thus I and IV).

Since your first chord was C and it could be functioning as I, IV or V, what Major scale is C the root , fourth or fifth of? (C major, G Major, F major)
Then C7 is the V or what scale? (F Major)

Do you follow now?

I am certain I have left enough of a trail to follow for anyone who is actually interested in this. If this doesn't get it for you are trying hard enough.

UV428
06-25-2004, 06:00 AM
I ii iii IV V vi Viio
Are the symbols for the seven chords of the Major scale.
The capital Roman Numerals are major chords that occur on the Root, Fourth and Fifth tones. (thus, I , IV or V)
Dom7 (like C7) chords can only occur on the Fifth tone (thus, V).
Major 6th chords can only occur on the other two Major chords (thus I and IV).

Since your first chord was C and it could be functioning as I, IV or V, what Major scale is C the root , fourth or fifth of? (C major, G Major, F major)
Then C7 is the V or what scale? (F Major)


I wanna see if I have this right.
I ii iii IV V vi Vii
C Dm Em F G Am B

C=Root
F=Fourth
G=Fifth

I"m good up to this point, I think.
One thing that throws me is
"(C major, G Major, F major)"
the order of your example. Is is truely C, G, F?
I count, C, Dm, Em, F. It seems to me that F is the forth.


Oh, wait a minute.
Fmaj. Of course.

Like E7 would be the fifth tone in the scale of A.

I've sat here for two hours horseing around with this.
I'd count it out on the fret board, on my fingers, and in my mind. I even drew little pictures. I've written volumes of notes on this and everything was pointing to G, because I was thinking G was the fifth. It is the V in the progression, but not the scale.

So simple, yet I made a mountain of obstucles, because I was interchanging the I ii iii IV V vi Vii with the notes of the scale.

I'm really embarassed to admit this.

To make sure I have this right,
A Bb6 would be the fourth tone in the scale of F.
Is this right?

wiechfreak
06-25-2004, 02:14 PM
I ii iii IV V vi Viio
Are the symbols for the seven chords of the Major scale.
The capital Roman Numerals are major chords that occur on the Root, Fourth and Fifth tones. (thus, I , IV or V)
Dom7 (like C7) chords can only occur on the Fifth tone (thus, V).
Major 6th chords can only occur on the other two Major chords (thus I and IV).

Since your first chord was C and it could be functioning as I, IV or V, what Major scale is C the root , fourth or fifth of? (C major, G Major, F major)
Then C7 is the V or what scale? (F Major)

Do you follow now?

I am certain I have left enough of a trail to follow for anyone who is actually interested in this. If this doesn't get it for you are trying hard enough. Yeah I understand a lot better now. What about minor chords. Is that what the lower case numerals are?

ChrisJ
06-25-2004, 02:41 PM
I explain the roman numeral system a bit in this IBM lesson, I'm pretty sure if you take a look, the whole thing will fit together:
http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/126
-CJ

szulc
06-25-2004, 11:54 PM
To make sure I have this right,
A Bb6 would be the fourth tone in the scale of F.
Is this right?
Yes, but not tone, chord.

UV428
06-26-2004, 01:44 AM
Yes, but not tone, chord.

Yes!!! Yes!!!
Chord
I knew that. Not tone.
Ok, I have it.

Thank you szulc.