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szulc
10-25-2002, 03:19 AM
This reminds me of Jerry Coker's 'Patterns For Jazz' Book.
I really don't consider this motives but I guess you could look at it that way. I alway kind of connected this with some form of arpeggio exercises.
Some of the coolest cycle exercises I have seen would be classified as motives using this definition. If you play cycle 4 min7 changes, start from the 3rd and play this repeating motive: 1b35b5
or cycle 4 dim7: 1 b3 b5 bb7 then descend on the second chord from the 3rd : b3 1 bb7 b5.
These are cool motive type cycle exercises. I'll post tab of these.

szulc
10-25-2002, 03:33 AM
Min7 Cycle 4 Motives

As promised.

szulc
10-25-2002, 03:33 AM
Dim 7 Cycle 4 motives
As promised.

szulc
10-25-2002, 03:36 AM
Once again I have seized the opportunity to discuss my favorite subject, Cycle exercises!

Guni
10-25-2002, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by szulc I really don't consider this motives but I guess you could look at it that way. I alway kind of connected this with some form of arpeggio exercises.
Hi James,

Well, yes I guess it depends on how you would define the term motive.

Motive: A short musical figure. It can be of any length, but is usually only a few notes long. A motive can be a melodic, harmonic or rhythmic pattern that is easily recognizable throughout a tune.

Guni

szulc
10-26-2002, 04:40 PM
3b5#57

szulc
10-26-2002, 04:41 PM
357#5

szulc
10-26-2002, 04:51 PM
A useful place for these examples is in turnarounds since they are usually cycle 4 dominant changes, and it is difficult to play anything over these using modal or scale relationships with out resorting to boring chromaticism. These at least use the chromaticism in a less obvious way.

You could use these diatonically to play 1256 or 1356 or some other pattern over every chord which is alluded to in the article.
Try starting with permutations of 3579, 5793, 7935, 9357, 3759 etc .....and descending also.

Maybe one of the aggressive beginners could post an example of this the over 'Autumn Leaves'.

Bongo Boy
10-26-2002, 08:50 PM
What is a 'turnaround'? I've found 4 examples of turnaorund progressions, and have discovered they're "very important" in popular music. The four examples are:

1) C Am7 Dm7 G7
2) Em7 A7 Dm7 G7
3) CM7 C#dim7 Dm7 G7
4) Gmaj9 Eb13 Dm9 Db9(#11)

I hear and see nothing here that suggests any common characteristics between these.

Guni
10-28-2002, 12:11 PM
Hi Bongo,

Turnarounds are used a lot at the end of a chorus to 'lead back' to the I chord.

Say ya have a tune that ends with 2 bars of C - then ya wanna go back to meassure 1 of the tune, which again starts with this chord

last 2 bars: Meassure 1
I C C I C C || C

Instead of playing C for 2 bars you can make use of a turnaround to create tension which will be released on the C in meassure 1.

In general a turnaround is made up of these chords I VI II V.

Diatonic turnaround:
I C Am7 I Dm7 G7 || C

with diatonic substitution: III for I

I Em7 Am7 I Dm7 G7 || C

with secondary dominants:

I C A7 I D7 G7 || C

with tritone substitutions:

I C Eb7 I D7 Db7 || C

the c#dim is a substitution for A7:

I C C#o I Dm7 G7 || C

etc ....

there are many techniques to reharm the basic I VI II V progression.

Hope this helps.

Guni

Bongo Boy
10-29-2002, 02:51 AM
Originally posted by szulc
Maybe one of the aggressive beginners could post an example of this the over 'Autumn Leaves'.

Here's what I've come up with so far...it sounds 'just okay' to me.
I'm trying now to play it--I'm not an eight-note guy just yet :). Not to mention it's hard for me to give this a swing without getting a silly sing-song, rhythmic effect (you know, like bad poetry?).

Bongo Boy
10-29-2002, 02:56 AM
Originally posted by Guni
Turnarounds are used a lot at the end of a chorus to 'lead back' to the I chord. Hope this helps.

The idea makes sense, and yes it helps--it's a lot for me to work thru though. With any luck we'll get a major snowstorm here tonight and I can stay home with these ideas tomorrow and study :)

szulc
10-29-2002, 03:37 AM
Bongo,
How does this sound t o your ears as far as enclosing the melody or at least giving a road map to the changes?

Try to see if you can play this a few times then improvise somthing similar but a little more musical. It should give you some ideas. Just play the chord changes and try to hear this in your head, then tweak it in your head to sound the way you would like it to sound, then play it like it is in your head. You might have to slow it down a bit until your hands can keep up with your imagination.

Bongo Boy
10-29-2002, 04:02 AM
Originally posted by szulc
How does this sound to your ears as far as enclosing the melody or at least giving a road map to the changes?

It sounds like an exercise, with little connection to the melody at all. I don't know about what it does relative to the chords--I've never heard the chords--they probably wouldn't seem connected to the melody, either (to my ear).


Try to see if you can play this a few times then improvise somthing similar but a little more musical. It should give you some ideas. Just play the chord changes and try to hear this in your head

...ah, so you DO have a sense of humor! :D

Seriously--I think I need to go back to the beginning--that is, playing the chords. I've never accomplished this.

nateman
10-29-2002, 05:02 AM
one of the nice things about powertab is that you can do nifty things like what i've attached below. here's how:

1) click somewhere in the first measure of your powertab.

2) click "Attach Staff." it should be the second button in the group of staff/section buttons, or you can find it on the Section menu.

3) the default settings should be fine, so click "OK."

4) enter your chord fingering on the new tab section, directly beneath the first note of the melody portion. either make this a whole note chord, or enter multiple chords or partial chords throughout the measure.

5) while your cursor is still on the chord, click "Gtr. In" or pick "Guitar In..." off the Guitar menu.

6) check the "Staff In" box for whichever guitar you want to use (if you have more than one) and click "OK."

7) click "Play from beginning" to hear your handiwork. (trust me, it sounds a lot more musical with the chords.)

8) rinse. lather. repeat.


now by turning the "Gtr In." symbol on for only selected staves, you can hear only the melody, or only the "rhythm," or both, or neither. there's actually a way of filling in a real bassline on a separate score, but it gets a little more complicated.

nateman
10-29-2002, 05:27 AM
oooh...me likey. :D

first, i made two copies of each chord in each of the first three measures. i made the first one a dotted half-note (click the half-note button, then click the button that shows a note with a dot to its right) and the second one a quarter note. then i realized that i liked your melody over the Gmaj7 the most, so i adjusted the others to fit the same pattern (had to swap two notes in the Am7 measure and two notes in the Cmaj7 measure). then i realized that the trailing note was the third of each chord, so i muted that note of the chord to make the trailing note stand out a little more. don't know how "correct" it is, but i like it.

szulc
10-29-2002, 12:01 PM
You guys should post the ptb or an mp3 of these.

Guni
10-29-2002, 01:09 PM
Yeah, a ptb file would be nice.

Anyway, I think we drifted a bit off-topic here. To me the above are more chord tone (arpeggio) exercises. Sure, you could call each of those 'licks' as motives but I think I'd call them rather lines. I am missing that motives are very musical.

Here's an example of what I mean based on the above:

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/posts/motive.gif

and the midi file (http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/posts/motive.mid)

Main differences are that:
- I added space to let the 'motive do its job'
- used a rhythmic variation of the motive

Guni

szulc
10-29-2002, 01:15 PM
There is no rule that says the rhythm of a motive can't be straight x notes!

Guni
10-29-2002, 01:28 PM
No there's not but I just wanted to show that a motive is the smallest building block. The lines above would rather fit the description of phrase, which is made up of motives.

Me splitting hairs here but I think it's important to use the correct terminology.

Guni

szulc
10-29-2002, 01:37 PM
The idea of adding rhythm to a straight x note motive is bound to give the opportunity to make the passage more musical. I have found even the slightest change in the execution of an idea will make it sound more 'jazzy'. I cite the example of an ascending sequence of 16th notes diatonically in groups of 4, just displacing the sequence 1/16th note later or 1/8th note later will make a huge difference in how 'jazzy ' it sounds. ( No time to tab this right now, off to work)

nateman
10-29-2002, 04:04 PM
James did say at the top that he "always kind of connected this with some form of arpeggio exercises," so i think that's what Bongo Boy and i were working off of. as for the technicality of it, i don't know. Guni's example is definitely more subtle and jazzy than what i posted.

well, i need to get ready for work, so i'll just see if i can post what i've got. i'll try attaching the ptb to this post and then follow up with the midi.

update: it didn't like me trying to attach the ptb in the normal fashion (through the "Attach file" option) so i'll just attach the midi and see if i can upload the ptb somewhere later.

Bongo Boy
10-29-2002, 04:20 PM
Based on all of our comments: James' initial question to me, my initial response ("no, it sounds like an exercise") and Guni's comments, I think we're all in agreement. What I put together is mechanical and doesn't sound too 'musical'.

It kinda seems that there are two ends of a spectrum in trying to help, via forum messages, a very inexperienced beginner. At one end of that spectrum is what you'd like to be able to say, "Improvise something real nice over these chords."

At the other end is what you feel the need to do to get this beginner kick-started, "Here's a recipe you can follow. It isn't going to be music, necessarily, but it should help convey the idea, and get you started. "

In this simplistic model of mine, ALL musicians fit somewhere on this spectrum in terms of their ability to respond to these instructions. So, my point is, it's a WIDE spectrum. Bongo Boy, as an example, is barely able to respond at the recipe-end of this continuum.

I know what I've baked doesn't taste so good, but am not sure if it's because of too much salt or because the eggs were beaten too long. :)

What about an approach that sets aside, for the moment, any defintions at all--the only guidance being the chords themselves. Through long, hard trial-and-error, bang out something that sounds pleasing. Then later, transcribe it, and THEN evaluate it to find several explanations for why it 'works'.

Can beginners take this approach, or will they die of old age first?