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Marlinark
11-11-2009, 10:46 PM
I can see many valuable properties that could come from a piano with a great deal of effect.

Just wondering, which ones are cool?

What effects should we use or look for?

fingerpikingood
11-12-2009, 03:07 AM
depends on what you do with it, whether you want to use your effects live, and stuff like that.

some keyboards have aftertouch which means that you can hold down the key and then get some new effect played for you of your choosing such as tremolo effect or something.

also some keyboards have the ability where you can program your own modulation so you make your own digital sounds.

some have a bunch of knobs and stuff you can program to activated things in software on your computer.

some also you can record beats and stuff into it, but to me, that's kind of gimmicky.

for me, the most valuable feature of any keyboard is the action, how the buttons press. so a weighted keyboard to me, is real important.

also just the basic sounds of it for live performance.

i also prefer that my keyboard has speakers in it.

but what's really cool too is that you can get any effects for your keyboard in software on your computer and then run your keyboard through midi into your ocmputer and take advantage of those.

the sky is the limit as far as that is concerned. you can get VST instruments that have sound banks for any variety of instruments and lots of these are really outstanding, and also you can get some where you can get some for programming your own modulated frequencies.

that's the way i went. p85. good action for the price, a good piano sound on it, has speakers, and is quite light and compact. and the rest i use software for. i have the native instruments komplete 5. which has akoustik piano for some acoustic piano sounds 4 pianos in all. FM8 for frequency modulation elektrik piano for electric piano sounds. guitar rig 3, designed for guitar but you can run your piano through it also, and kontakt 3 which has many other instruments like horns and violins and stuff also. it also has battery 3 included where you can map drums to your keyboard. it comes with a bunch of other great stuff also.

then you can run all of that through a DAW and record full songs with it.

at the end of the day though, you need to decide exactly what you plan to use your piano for, and then you can decide which features help you achieve that the best within your budget.

bluesking
11-12-2009, 03:08 AM
Why don't you try to get "thousands of dollars worth of mp3 downloads", listen to them and see if you can recognise any effects similar to what is available on your keyboard?

IMHO "We" should use effects which filter out all of the "wrong" notes. This makes it much easier for "us" to play correctly.

My personal favourite is the "functional harmony" preset. It automatically generates pleasing progressions. After that its just a case of setting the LFO to the "rhythm section" program & selecting "catchy melody" on the ring modulator.

JonR
11-12-2009, 02:22 PM
I can see many valuable properties that could come from a piano with a great deal of effect.Indeed.
But remember a "keyboard" has more effects than a "piano".
A piano is a big thing with lots of strings, hit with hammers via a keyboard. Only one "effect" really.
A keyboard is a row of (er) keys. On a board ;). It may not make any sound at all (if it's a controller or "mother" keyboard).
A keyboard with onboard sounds will have a piano sound (usually several, of varying quality/realism), and many other sounds and effects (probably).
There are "digital pianos", with a few (sampled or electronic) piano sounds, but no effects.
And at the other end are DAWs (digital audio workstations) with 100s of sounds, countless effects, and sequencing capability too.
In between, plenty of electronic keyboard instruments, with various combinations of sounds (usually based on a standard MIDI set) and effects, and at various price levels.
And synthesizers too, of course, on which you can create your own sounds, bearing as little resemblance as you like to traditional instruments.

Just wondering, which ones are cool?Define "cool". (AFAIK, analogue synths are generally the coolest. But I'm no expert. Either on synths or what's cool. I shouldn't really be here at all :rolleyes:)

What effects should we use or look for?"We"? Is there a group of you? ;)

Depends what effects you want, of course. How should we (sorry, "I") know?

Madaxeman
11-12-2009, 02:48 PM
I can see many valuable properties that could come from a piano with a great deal of effect.

Just wondering, which ones are cool?

"Imagine" by John Lennon
"Let it Be" by the Beatles
"Daniel" by Elton John
Piano Sonata No. 14 ("Moonlight" Sonata) by Beethoven
"Fur Elise" by Beethoven

;)

JonR
11-12-2009, 08:10 PM
"Imagine" by John Lennon
"Let it Be" by the Beatles
"Daniel" by Elton John
Piano Sonata No. 14 ("Moonlight" Sonata) by Beethoven
"Fur Elise" by Beethoven

;)OK, I'll see those, and raise you "Boogie Woogie Stomp" (or anything) by Albert Ammons and "Straight No Chaser" (or almost anything) by Thelonius Monk.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNbc0YO5hKg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxX0-OaI5j0

(There could be no end to this, but somehow I think it's not what he's asking...)

Marlinark
11-12-2009, 10:59 PM
Yes keyboards :)


Cool effects.

IE,
1 - Piano
2 - Stacatto Piano
3 - Guitar
4 - Alien Noises
etc...

I have heard many of these cool effects from the beetles, elton john etc..
Just looking more specifically for a piano players preference.

Madaxeman
11-13-2009, 01:50 PM
Yes keyboards :)

I have heard many of these cool effects from the beetles, elton john etc..
Just looking more specifically for a piano players preference.

I was joking a bit by listing those songs...
as in the songs themselves were "valuable properties" because they are popular songs and they came from a piano, not as in the sound effects used, but the fact the songs were written on a piano.;)

But humor aside, you can use any MIDI keyboard and software like Reason to get any sound you want, from running a grand piano sound through distrotion, delay, reverb, or whatever. And if you aren't familiar with MIDI, many keyboards are coming out with MIDI to USB connections, so all you need to do is plug the keyboard directly into your computer.

If you have questions on Reason, PM me and I'll fill you in. It is a very powerful tool for songwriting.

Madaxeman
11-13-2009, 08:49 PM
(There could be no end to this, but somehow I think it's not what he's asking...)

All in good fun though :D

fingerpikingood
11-14-2009, 06:01 AM
reason is good but it lacks the ability to record real audio, and the sounds are decent not that great. a real DAW and good software synths are much better i find. there's so much out there that's so good these days. but it's not cheap.

plus you can run reason through rewire on the main DAWs out there.

if i was going to go the digital route i think the best combo would be Cubase and Native Instruments Komplete 5. Komplete 6 is out now but it doesn't come with akoustik piano on it.

although there are some sounds that reason has that kontakt 3 doesn't have such as bells and stuff, reason comes with a good variety of sounds on it.

and it's definitely a fun thing that gives you quite a bit of versatility added to your keyboard, but really Komplete 5 is much more.... komplete.

the downside is, although you can run all the programs that come with it, in standalone mode, just for playing around, if you want to record something, you need a DAW.

reason on the other hand, you can record your midi keyboard with all the sounds it comes with right out the box, but you couldn't say, make drums with your keyboard or redrum drum machine it comes with, and then violins and piano and whatever you fancy on top, and then record your guitar with distortion on top of that.

you would need to play guitar on your piano and add distortion to it.

so vocals are also out of the question. everything that's audio. it's only a midi sequencer. albeit a quite powerful one.


so with software you can put any effects on your keyboard whatsoever. the sky is the limit, but one thing that might be cool to get on your keyboard if you're going to do that, is aftertouch like i said.

apart from that, it's just really the feel of the keys.

ya some keyboards come with the ability to record, and usually simple EQs and stuff but most of that is really just toys that get old fast. it depends what you want really. to me, drums on a keyboard don't cut it, i'd rather plug it in to my computer for that.

one thing though that actually can be quite cool is the ability to split your keyboard in 2 instruments. so you can do bass on the left hand and piano on the right.

reason allows you to do this as well. actually reason will let you put a different sound on every key of your keyboard if you want. you could even record your own voice and put that on your keyboard, but you'd need other programs to help you achieve that, because like i said, reason doesn't record.

i forget what i said in my last post. but as with most things you should think of your intended goal of your purchase, obviously if you're getting started there will be features and stuff you don't know about that once you hear about them will sound real cool to you, but that's like the journey, the steps along the way of how to get your end result you want.

so always first decide where you want to go, then people will be more able to help you get what you need to get you there.

bluesking
11-14-2009, 11:43 AM
On the subject of DAWs I would reccomend Reaper. This was free for amateur use some time ago, I'm not sure if it still is but if not its extremely cheap. If you are planning to sell your recordings you should pay for it, although its still very cheap.

The routing support is fantastic, the application is extremely fast & lightweight (about 30MB installer). I have yet to find a feature in Cubase which Reaper doesn't have.

I think its developed by the same guys who did Winamp all those years ago.

fingerpikingood
11-14-2009, 02:57 PM
is reaper really that good? i think i might give it a try then. although i'd be really very surprised if it up to cubase's standards. cubase has a hell of alot of features and options.


so far so good, screenshots look amazing. you may have really made my day today.

i'm gona have fun with this. man it's really annoying i can't a full song complete in a DAW because i keep switching DAW and then starting over again because i can't really judge until i try to do the real thing.

one thing though i'd like to know, is whether, idk if you're familiar with sonar, there's a channel tools typed plugin. basically a plugin that allows you to place a given track where you want it in the stereo field, so panned left or right, only on the far sides, in the middle, wide or thin.

and also if it has the ability to edit multiple tracks in the same piano roll. this is not a make or break feature, and cubase can't do this, but it's pretty cool, sonar and pro tools have that option.

oh man, you've made me all excited.... giggiddy.

fingerpikingood
11-14-2009, 03:26 PM
step two looks nice as well, has a good variety of plugins. multi band compressor and all that good stuff too. nice. but i didn't see a stereo manipulation plugin... dang nabbit. unless JS FX processing has it. that really kind of sucks actually. maybe i can find some 3rd party plugin that can do that somewhere.

bluesking
11-14-2009, 05:20 PM
I'm glad you like it mate. I am totally converted not least because its free.

As far as stereo manipulation goes I never use plugins, just the right mix of stereo recording techniques & panning. Panning is done on the tracks themselves, no need for a plugin. For example, most electric pianos have two outputs which can be recorded in stereo, one channel carries more of the high notes, the other channl the low notes. By seperately panning these two recorded channels you can put your keyboard into a certain stereo range. Same idea with guitar tracks: you can record a track, make a copy of that track and introduce a very slight delay, then pan them to different areas in the stereo field and get their volumes correct. Really nice way of guiding the ear to the guitar part.

One thing I would have to say about reaper is that although it comes with a reasonable set of VST plugins these are not the most user-friendly. They sound fine, but the interfaces for them are not very useful, it can take a lot of fiddling. I don't really use the build in VSTs all that much, preffering to use other free VSTs with a better interface. Its fully compatible with all VSTs I've tried.

The routing and bussing options I actually prefer to Cubase. I find it much easier to group seperate drum tracks and select my record sources etc.

The best thing is the speed. I can record 16 simultaneous tracks straight to hard-disk without any crashes or glitches (I have a special mixer we use on live gigs which routes all the tracks seperately to my crappy old business laptop). Cubase crashes every time, it eats most of your CPU and a whole lot of RAM just running the application, without any effects.

Happy reaping!

fingerpikingood
11-15-2009, 07:54 PM
cool, one thing though i noticed so far ( ihaven't properly tested in a recording situation yet) is that it doesn't have any key binding options. which is kind of a downer, but if they did a good job of building their defaults it's not too big a deal. that's one thing i really find outstanding in cubase.

bluesking
11-16-2009, 12:26 AM
cool, one thing though i noticed so far ( ihaven't properly tested in a recording situation yet) is that it doesn't have any key binding options. which is kind of a downer, but if they did a good job of building their defaults it's not too big a deal. that's one thing i really find outstanding in cubase.

Options->Preferences->General->Keyboard
You can assign anything to any key combo.

fingerpikingood
11-16-2009, 04:09 AM
ooo nice thanks.

what i like about this is you can set the grid via shortcut key, and quantize to grid via shortcut key, which makes for quick editing. although i'm starting to use quantize alot less, quick grid changing though is huge imo.

fingerpikingood
11-19-2009, 03:03 AM
dude, the more i look at reaper the more i wanna make babies with it. it seems so customizable. i'm still a little worried that i'm gonna find some kind of thing it doesn't do that i need. but on the other hand i'm starting to think that it can do anything. and if it can't, then i can "teach it" myself. customizability i think is one of the most important features of a DAW, and this one seems to be real strong in that category.

I think reaper may be a real appropriate name for me, because so far it looks like it just put the competition to sleep.... forever.