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nils152
03-31-2006, 01:52 PM
:cool: I was just wondering if any of you guys agree with john petrucci's philosophy on soloing, where he believes in using speeded up scale fragments as a foundation to a solo with bits of improv thrown in? do any of you guys play this way or what? kind regards;)

EricV
03-31-2006, 02:21 PM
I used to do the same thing, playing little "bursts" and smaller segments, then using them as building blocks to put together longer passages, like runs. IMO that always made more sense than going for a 96 bar-high speed picking etude right away.
Working on smaller bits helps to focus on the technical aspects involved, without having to memorize a lot. Use a lot of variations to get used to different sequences of notes instead of just going up and down.
BTW, Neil Zaza recommended those kind of little fragments as well
Eric

Oceano
03-31-2006, 02:44 PM
I guess it works in certain situations, as for me, I am more into players that don't play like that. I prefer players like Jeff Beck, Roy Buchanan, Mark Knopfler, Terje Rypdal, John Amercrombie, etc, they just play melodies and don't think in patterns at all, their phrasing is just centred around developing meloies and they just grab the notes they need. To me it sounds "free".

EricV
03-31-2006, 02:53 PM
I donīt think that the "segments" approach has to be all that limited. I mean, I think itīs meant to be used as an exercise to get used to a load of different sequences of notes, thereby training your hands to deal with anything you would like to play.
At least thatīs what I like to use it for. When I play, I donīt like to go "OK, lick 23b, then run 44h, then..."
But when I hear something in my mind that Iīd like to play, it might be a bit easier now than it wouldīve been if I hadnīt done a lot of that "segment" / bursts type practicing.
Eric

forgottenking2
03-31-2006, 03:05 PM
Patterns are useful not just in training the fingers and to be used as "fillers" in solos but they also train your Ears, if you practice playing them you can hear them easily when transcribing other people's music. Melodic patterns can also be used creatively while soloing. Who says all patterns have to have stepwise motion? What if you have an ascending third followed by a descending 2nd followed by an ascending 5th (that's an extreme example and quite a workout by the way) you get my point, if you use patterns like that and vary the rythm a bit (instead of just trying to get them all as 16th notes) and practice them in both chromatic and diatonic ways up and down scales, you will hear this things as part of a larger lick or melody. Rock guys like Petrucci, Morse, Satriani, Gilbert, Jazz guys like, Coltrane, Aebersold, Rollins, Pass, Frissell they all use patterns and sequences, and have you analyzed some classical pieces? Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Bethoven... there's a lot of sequences and patterns there as well. It's all a matter of using those patterns creatively and you'll get melodious results. Practice them like a machine and well... you'll sound like one.

Good luck with that.

-Jorge

Oceano
03-31-2006, 03:07 PM
Yeah, I can see the benefit in practicing like that and I have done it too.

Silhouette
03-31-2006, 03:31 PM
I guess it works in certain situations, as for me, I am more into players that don't play like that. I prefer players like Jeff Beck, Roy Buchanan, Mark Knopfler, Terje Rypdal, John Amercrombie, etc, they just play melodies and don't think in patterns at all, their phrasing is just centred around developing meloies and they just grab the notes they need. To me it sounds "free".

I tend to agree, for me t's allways better to be moved by a musical piece rather than be impressed by it. And I personally do'nt like 16th runs at all, but thats just me. (I mean, hell, even the Paganini caprises I play in a "free feel" rhythm...)
In no way am I underestimating the guys that you are talking about, I hope that it's clear, they're great musicians.

I want to add that in my learning proccess I've been sitting a lot in front of Slash's (-from G'N'R) solos. I want to say that he is truly an excelent musician. the fast runs he plays are very impressive, not speed-wise, but in their structure and rhythm. Try to have a look at the solo in "do'nt damn me" by G'N'R I think you'll find it as educating as I did.

(I'd post it on GP4 but I'm not sure about the legal stuff and it's quite easy to find on the web... heres a link to GP4 file for Don't damn me: http://mysongbook.com/?msbp=eng%2Ctab%2Ctab_list&keyword=don%27t+damn+me ).

Edit: I've never tryed these files so I don't know how accurate they are. As far as I know GuitarPro4 files are usualy acurate. If the transcription sounds right (and I think it does because there we're some good replys to it) then check out the rhythm guitar too, I like it a lot.
P.S sorry for my bad English. :rolleyes:

EricV
03-31-2006, 06:10 PM
As usual, itīs not a matter of black and white. Sure, if solos sound like theyīre constructed from a bunch of licks and nothing else, the segment approach might seem uncreative or whatever.
However, what if you use them to improve your technique to a point where youīre able to actually play the ideas in your mind ?
I am sure Slash has done a bit of practicing technical things as well. He uses the techniques he achieved there in a rather "free" style of playing, without it sounding very constructed.
Eric

Neil_Morgan
03-31-2006, 06:26 PM
Indeed; you just need to listen to the outro solo on 'Nightrain' to hear that Slash has (or at least had) some pretty decent chops.

In my opinion, John Petrucci is one of the finest guitar players on the planet. Sure, his stuff with DT is very flash and showy (particularly the more recent stuff, with the eception of the 'Octavarium' album...) but if you check out the work he did with Liquid Tension Experiment you'll hear him really shining. He really is a beast of a guitar player.

I know that doesn't really answer the question, but I just thought I'd pay homage... lol

My actual answer would be that most of my solos adopt an approach which I've kinda nicknamed 'The Foreplay Way'. It's where I start off nice and easy going, nothing too intense, and gradually build up to full on fireworks!!!:cool:

NM

Silhouette
03-31-2006, 07:11 PM
However, what if you use them to improve your technique to a point where youīre able to actually play the ideas in your mind ?
Of course, I agree, I did not mean that 16'th RUNS ARE BAD FOR YOU!!! I, too, practice 16'th runs when I'm working on my technique, and I think that most of the guitarists I like did.
All I'm saying is that I think that Malmsteen or Petrucci or whatever X player has killer technique, plays mean guitar, is intersting in his choise of notes and harmonies. But to me it sounds a little monotonic because (I think thats the reason) of the long 16'th runs. I mean that most the time they are playing a sigment of only 16'ths or sixplets or -you get the picture...-. and, hey, if you wanna prove me wrong go ahead, I by far don't know all of their songs.:D

EricV
03-31-2006, 07:40 PM
I donīt have to prove you wrong.
Thats your opinion, and if it works for you, awesome. Why would I try to change your mind ?
Thereīs plenty of music without 16th note runs, although I think itīs odd to decide upon those whether you like music or not. But thatīs just my opinion =)
Eric

Silhouette
03-31-2006, 07:56 PM
I donīt have to prove you wrong.
Thats your opinion, and if it works for you, awesome. Why would I try to change your mind ?
Thereīs plenty of music without 16th note runs, although I think itīs odd to decide upon those whether you like music or not. But thatīs just my opinion =)
Eric
Sure, you cant prove me wrong bout the things I like.:rolleyes: I meant that you can prove me wrong when I said that Malmsteen Petrucci etc... only play sigments of fast sixplets or 16'ths or whatever. You think you know what I'm trying to say? sorry, my english is a little crappy...
Perhaps I egsaturated a little, I do like some 'monorhythmic' runs, it's just that I don't enjoy listening to them for a long time because I find them a little boring. (I think I'll regret printing to word "boring" cause if some guys will hear it in the contex of Malmsteen they will stone me... :D :D :D )
Again that's just me.

curiousgeorge
03-31-2006, 10:45 PM
Sure, you cant prove me wrong bout the things I like.:rolleyes: I meant that you can prove me wrong when I said that Malmsteen Petrucci etc... only play sigments of fast sixplets or 16'ths or whatever. You think you know what I'm trying to say? sorry, my english is a little crappy...
Perhaps I egsaturated a little, I do like some 'monorhythmic' runs, it's just that I don't enjoy listening to them for a long time because I find them a little boring. (I think I'll regret printing to word "boring" cause if some guys will hear it in the contex of Malmsteen they will stone me... :D :D :D )
Again that's just me.

Hey man, relax, Eric is not trying to pick a fight with you.CHILL.

Silhouette
04-01-2006, 10:15 PM
if you check out the work he did with Liquid Tension Experiment you'll hear him really shining. He really is a beast of a guitar player.

NM
That's interesting, I'll check it out


Curiousgeorge, I'm not trying to pick on Eric, of course. Neil asked weather we agree on Petruccis philosophy on soloing and I'm just stating an opinion. :)

jazzIII
04-02-2006, 06:25 AM
Perhaps you haven't heard that much of Petrucci's playing. He's really not the type to DO endless runs of 16th notes. He always has a sense of balance to his playing. Futhermore, your original post is NOT indicitive of John Petrucci's solo style...at all. It may be however his philosophy of his method of building chops, as has previously been mentioned.

Yes, he CAN stream 16th notes endlessly. No, he does not do it all the time. There are other players who should be centered out for that particular "crime" if an argument had to be made...certainly not JP.

debaser
04-06-2006, 08:34 PM
Of course, I agree, I did not mean that 16'th RUNS ARE BAD FOR YOU!!! I, too, practice 16'th runs when I'm working on my technique, and I think that most of the guitarists I like did.
All I'm saying is that I think that Malmsteen or Petrucci or whatever X player has killer technique, plays mean guitar, is intersting in his choise of notes and harmonies. But to me it sounds a little monotonic because (I think thats the reason) of the long 16'th runs. I mean that most the time they are playing a sigment of only 16'ths or sixplets or -you get the picture...-. and, hey, if you wanna prove me wrong go ahead, I by far don't know all of their songs.:D

A couple of quick thoughts about this:

First, I know what you mean. However, the thing that I think keeps the drama in Slash's playing, as compared to Yngwie or Petrucci, is the general sense that he could completely lose it at any time. "Don't Damn Me" is a great example of his reckless(and feeling no pain) approach. On the other hand, he is playing in rhythmic groupings, like anyone else, and a lot of them are 16th note runs that have oddities because he isn't articulating them "correctly"(although obviously it sounds cool).

On topic, I think that Petrucci's approach is a matter of perspective. Of course it is not good if your playing sounds too much like a pattern. But, there are lots of guys who wouldn't be able to do what they do without using scale sequences, and not all of them are what you'd call "shredders". McLaughlin, Metheny, Fripp, not to mention guys like Coltrane, Bud Powell, and so on are all clearly well-schooled in sequnces, or they would never be able to play the phrases that come out in their improvisations.

Shredmaniac
04-07-2006, 06:34 AM
McLaughlin, Metheny, Fripp, not to mention guys like Coltrane, Bud Powell.

Hey that's 5 of my favorite musicians you quoted here =). I just LOVE King Crimson. I think Adrian Belew is my current favorite guitar player.

Although not a Petrucci/DT fan for reasons I won't begin to explain, I think a lot of people may have been introduced to his playing on the Train Of Thought album. If you base your judgment on just that album, maybe you can put him in the 16th notes addict category (I said maybe, please don't flame DT fans ^^).

But just a quick listen on the outro solo to The Mirror/Lie (or basically anything from Awake IMO) will probably change your mind. The guitar parts on that album are SO inspired.

About Ynwgie (or Slash for that matter), he is a stylist the way B.B. King is a stylist (shameless quote from I don't remember right now ^^). And like every player that has a distinctive style / sound, you either like it or you don't. I love/used to love both Yngwie and Slash, and I don't see how any of them has been reinventing his playing lately... They pretty much found the approach they wanted to develop and stuck to it.