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Thread: List of Tendencies

  1. #76
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    The Amount of Connections is how many prime numbers are needed. For example 3x5 is just two connections. More connections adds Complexity and maybe a bit of Ambiguous. Regardless this Tendency resolves with fewer connections. So 3x3x3 would resolve to 3x3.

    Higher Prime, in this case, is just x5 and x3. So x5 would normally resolve to x3.


    Higher Amount of Beating
    is a very common dissonance measurement. How much are the frequencies colliding with each other. You can look up "critical distance" or even just "dissonance" and find info on it. It's an objective measurement.

    Potential Negative Strength How much contrast (strength) do we have between the negative and positive versions of an interval. Some intervals really don't want to be negative. Like [G B] would really like to be [1 3]. If I choose B as my tonic instead then I get a Dark b6. This seems to have a residual effect even when I find a positive route to take. This is because there's a potential negative version that has less connections.

    I can face it Positive with 5x5, but the potential for negativity is still there because 5x5 ---> x5.

    This creates a type of Conflict because two types of Tendencies are in battle. Negative --->Positive and Higher Amount of Connections ----> Lower Amount of Connections. In this chart Positive is winning so Potential Negative Strength is a type of Conflict.

    Intervals in the middle of the chart are weaker and therefore easier to face in either direction.




    Just as a reminder, any of these Tendencies can seem to go opposite, but it's really that another Tendency had an influence.

    For example the b2 has a Lower Amount of Connections than the 4, but the b2 has a crazy amount of Beating compared to the 4.


    Positive Tonal Numbers - Resolution Chart 3.jpg

    Here's a direct link to the Audio examples:

    Focus is on +4 +5 and then b3
    http://freejazzinstitute.com/uploads..._Valentino.mp3

    Focus is on 4 b7 and b2
    http://freejazzinstitute.com/uploads..._Valentino.mp3
    Last edited by Ken Valentino 2; 08-25-2017 at 02:24 AM.

  2. #77
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    in this case, is just x5 and x3.
    OK.
    on the other hand, could you perceive some blue notes ratios with only x5 and x3 ?


    (quoted in post#16 from earlier conversation)
    Then not only does this 225:128 b7 sound different, it also resolves to a +5. A bluesy 7:4 b7 on the other hand is more resolved than a b6. So those two notes can be completely backwards
    Then it even gets tricker because a 225:128 and a 7:4 are almost the same as far as intonation. So I can't play one without the possibly of the other being perceived instead. I have to connect differently, maybe even create a CT on +IV at first. After I learn to connect to it though, I can then get rid of the CT by not allowing the ear to build a Tonic there.
    how positive b7 (3x3x5x5) (maj3 over +4) (maj7 over 7) (p5 over positive b3) etc.
    sounds different than blue b7 (x7) or (7:5) or (7:6) to you !?
    is there a kinda complex bright vs complex bending or not so bright something going on ? are they both complex and bright/positive ?
    is there a way to describe the sound quality of the b7 for a 225:128 vs a 7:4 (the way you described neg b7 vs blue b7 in post#52#53) or it's really the sound of the connections/intervals/building blocks that makes the sound !?

    do you have a resolution chart or a routemap for the blue notes example ?
    by the way, what is the difference between blue notes like b7(ex post#53) b3 and b2 (ex post#46)
    and what you called Positive Blue Notes 2 6 3 7 +4 +5 (ex. post#48) ? are they all positive blue notes or there are also kinda negative blue notes ?
    blue notes are mainly about the route/melodic intervals or you can hear them in chords voicings ?
    same question why the blue notes sound kinda bending ? is it not only the sound of the intervals but also the way you end up hearing the note itself !?

  3. #78
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    @Anatole

    It's been extremely bad weather here. Our own house hasn't flooded yet, but more rain is expected. I just want to post the newest charts while I can.

    Tonal Numbers - Master Resolution Chart.jpg

    Blue Tonal Numbers - Resolution Chart 3.jpg

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Valentino 2 View Post
    @Anatole

    It's been extremely bad weather here. Our own house hasn't flooded yet, but more rain is expected. I just want to post the newest charts while I can.
    OK.
    I've seen the pictures on the news.

    Be careful. We hope you'll be all right.

  5. #80
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    Everyone's ok, that was an insane amount of water! 50"+ Still hard to believe it could rain that much for that long. Fortunately we just had a small roof leak. Some of our neighborhood got flooded, it got really close.

    Headed back out to check on friends and family. We were trapped in for a while.

  6. #81
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    Dedicated to First Responders. We greatly appreciate all that you've done.

    Hurricane Harvey
    http://freejazzinstitute.com/uploads..._Valentino.mp3


  7. #82
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    Ken,

    is there any strategies when testing your tonic concerning the register high vs low ?
    for example in the blue b3 and double blue b2 example you posted, you test the tonic (A) at the end, on the high end, and just below and close to the b3 and also close to the b2.

    do you want to test your tonic kinda close to where stuffs are happening ? still there is a difference between close below and close above !?

    and what the difference between testing your tonic on the low end ? it sounds like a modal tonic as if you were reinforcing the tonic, it sounds like this because the A is already the I so that repeating it in the low register just confirms it more.

    it also seems to me that testing your tonic totally on the high end would be kinda counterproductive ? (a maj6 over the positive b3/+2 or the blue b3 or a maj7 over the positive b2/+1 or the blue b2).



    and still I struggle to hear the difference between a bright b3 and a blue b3,

    1) a bright b3 could be : from the I, up a maj10, up a p5, and up a maj3 (it's there on the chart it's the positive b3 x3x5x5) well here it is C E B D# so it's rather x5x3x5.

    2) a blue b3 could be a dom7#9 tonic chord arpeggiated C E Bb #D: from the I, up a maj10, up a TT, up a p4, (it's also there it's the blue b3 :3x7)
    in the latter situation I hear the b3 way less bright,
    anything else ? more complexity ? because of the 5:7 between the 3 and the b7 is there more complexity or something !? (BTW 45:32 is the ratio for positive +4 (x3x3x3x3x3x3 and x3x3x5), 21/2=√2 for TT, 11/8 for *4 and 5:7 is the "into blue territory interval" that's like a ET12 tritone up ?)

    beating also ?
    case 2) I may be that I can hear the beating (from the ET maj10) influencing the blue b3
    case 1) (with B natural) it's as if the positive b3 sound does not beat with the ET maj10 below (or way less).


    now the funny thing,
    3) from the I, up a maj10, up a maj2, up a maj3, up a p4, spelling C E F# (does it sounds like a positive +4 to you ?) Bb (does it sound like a positive b7 to you) and D# (well does it sound to you like a blend: positive b3 and a blue b3 ?)

    to me that b3 does not sound like a b3 when played from the I, up a maj10, up a maj2, up a p4, up a p4, spelling C E F# B D#
    (which does sound like a positive b3 as played from the I, up a maj10, up a maj2, up a maj6, spelling C E F# D#)



    it's the 'enter into blue space" intervals that I struggle with, they could be a min7 ascending (x7), a min3 ascending (6:7), a tritone ascending (5:7) ? are there others like this ? I understand once you got through the blue space you happen to stay in there using any interval (cf. positive blue numbers) like a 7:9 (maj3 ascending to a blue 2 for example) or is there any way to come back in like with TG ? as if once a change in color has been perceived it's staying there like painting.
    it's all really interesting Ken thank you.
    Last edited by anatole; 10-03-2017 at 03:29 PM.

  8. #83
    thank you for nice info

  9. #84
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    Awesome thread brief information is provided by members regarding tendencies.
    http://youtubecomments.aircus.com/mixcloudplays

  10. #85
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    anatole
    Ken,

    is there any strategies when testing your tonic concerning the register high vs low ?
    for example in the blue b3 and double blue b2 example you posted, you test the tonic (A) at the end, on the high end, and just below and close to the b3 and also close to the b2.

    do you want to test your tonic kinda close to where stuffs are happening ? still there is a difference between close below and close above !?

    and what the difference between testing your tonic on the low end ? it sounds like a modal tonic as if you were reinforcing the tonic, it sounds like this because the A is already the I so that repeating it in the low register just confirms it more.

    it also seems to me that testing your tonic totally on the high end would be kinda counterproductive ? (a maj6 over the positive b3/+2 or the blue b3 or a maj7 over the positive b2/+1 or the blue b2).
    You may be hearing it as an octave instead of a Tonic. Test an octave lower if you need to. I like to test melody as close(in register) as possible to prove what I'm hearing. Keep in mind I'm completely cool with bitonality or multiple tonalities. In these examples I actually want octave equivalence, even though I do know that it's a myth.

    That was by the way a very important skill for me to learn. If in my later examples if the higher octave tenses up and it isn't your perceived one, don't use my labels, somethings wrong.

    d still I struggle to hear the difference between a bright b3 and a blue b3,

    1) a bright b3 could be : from the I, up a maj10, up a p5, and up a maj3 (it's there on the chart it's the positive b3 x3x5x5) well here it is C E B D# so it's rather x5x3x5.

    2) a blue b3 could be a dom7#9 tonic chord arpeggiated C E Bb #D: from the I, up a maj10, up a TT, up a p4, (it's also there it's the blue b3 :3x7)
    in the latter situation I hear the b3 way less bright,
    anything else ? more complexity ? because of the 5:7 between the 3 and the b7 is there more complexity or something !? (BTW 45:32 is the ratio for positive +4 (x3x3x3x3x3x3 and x3x3x5), 21/2=√2 for TT, 11/8 for *4 and 5:7 is the "into blue territory interval" that's like a ET12 tritone up ?)
    The "new " sound for me was a "bright" b3. I had to not hear it as minor or blues which was very hard for me. It also was in an EDO with the very things that could link it positive. After that all else in the positive realm was easy.

    beating also ?
    case 2) I may be that I can hear the beating (from the ET maj10) influencing the blue b3
    case 1) (with B natural) it's as if the positive b3 sound does not beat with the ET maj10 below (or way less).
    It's really a case by case basis. You would think from "studies" of "critical distance" that the blue notes being father away would be more consonant. They instead are more complex so in many cases more "dissonant" even though usually positive. It's positive vs complex. Beating matters, but not as much as you'd think. In my experience it's usually something else. It may be a way for you to memorize the two sounds though. Blue notes are more complex and usually beat more.

    If you can hear the b3 positive then it could be connected to the 3 already. Which is the reason it harmonizes so well.

    now the funny thing,
    3) from the I, up a maj10, up a maj2, up a maj3, up a p4, spelling C E F# (does it sounds like a positive +4 to you ?) Bb (does it sound like a positive b7 to you) and D# (well does it sound to you like a blend: positive b3 and a blue b3 ?)

    to me that b3 does not sound like a b3 when played from the I, up a maj10, up a maj2, up a p4, up a p4, spelling C E F# B D#
    (which does sound like a positive b3 as played from the I, up a maj10, up a maj2, up a maj6, spelling C E F# D#)
    There's a quick way to tell. Does the pos b7 and pos b3 resolve to +5? If it doesn't they may be blue notes as opposed to just positive.

    it's the 'enter into blue space" intervals that I struggle with, they could be a min7 ascending (x7), a min3 ascending (6:7), a tritone ascending (5:7) ? are there others like this ? I understand once you got through the blue space you happen to stay in there using any interval (cf. positive blue numbers) like a 7:9 (maj3 ascending to a blue 2 for example) or is there any way to come back in like with TG ? as if once a change in color has been perceived it's staying there like painting.
    it's all really interesting Ken thank you.



    It can happen. Usually the mind just turns it back into the simplest and most recognizable thing it can.

    I actually use the blue 2 a lot. I don't feel like I have to stay in that territory. That's what makes it different than negative numbers. You can actually even have negative blue notes, but normal blue notes aren't negative. You don't have to create as much of a context change.

    As far as coming in it isn't as straightforward. If you look at the blues chart many are equal in dissonance. In real situations though a melody wouldn't only be blue notes. That's why I tried to have an overlay effect to it in my chart.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Valentino 2 View Post
    There's a quick way to tell. Does the pos b7 and pos b3 resolve to +5? If it doesn't they may be blue notes as opposed to just positive.
    that's a tough one! I can't really tell how I feel that +5. at the very best I might hear something like a less tense'ish when going down from the b7 to a +5, but when going up either from the b3 or the b7, up a p4 or up a m7, well it sounds like a +5, kinda weird.

    [QUOTE]
    I actually use the blue 2 a lot. /QUOTE]
    in your example of the blue 2 you seem to connect to the blue 2 from another blue note, either the blue b7 or the blue b3 ?

    Usually the mind just turns it back into the simplest and most recognizable thing it can.
    could it happen to reach a blue 2 or any blue positive number directly from another positive number ?

    I seem to better understand the route model/building from intervals charts as you showed last summer especially when intervals have different ratios (blue notes and remote ratios) and perhaps negative intervals too and perhaps later how tonics morph and coexist.
    wish you'd go on the subject with the examples @freejazzinstitue.

  12. #87
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    All right here is a chart at the free jazz institute:

    http://freejazzinstitute.com/showpos..._Ken_Valentino

  13. #88
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    Hello Ken,

    would you find an extended bright +5 beyond double blue +5 and around / between the ex bright b2, pos ex b7 and ex 4 ? or is it in the vanished area past ex 3 ?

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    Hello Ken,

    would you find an extended bright +5 beyond double blue +5 and around / between the ex bright b2, pos ex b7 and ex 4 ? or is it in the vanished area past ex 3 ?
    Do you mean 5 5 5 5 3(x3x3x3x3x5)? It would be right underneath Ex Bright 4. The complexity is the same as Sus Dark 3 and the positive strength is the same as +5.

    Same strength issue, all the building blocks are positive, but there's a simpler version, the b6. That blend makes the +5 (x5x5) more dissonant than the +4 (x3x5x5) which wouldn't be the case if you just looked at complexity.

    Watch out for that extended bright +5 to vanish and become +5 instead.

    Just to be clear I put that "vanishing" reminder by the Ex 3 just because it's one that easily happens. Vanishing can happen to a bunch of numbers. Since we are still connected to the Tonic a simpler or more positive connection can end up being what we really hear.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Valentino 2 View Post
    Do you mean 5 5 5 5 3(x3x3x3x3x5)?
    yes OK.

    when you're looking at connections on the chart, is the left-to-right-reading-order important ?
    (I understand there are the pos dark b3 and the neg dark b3)
    so pos dark does exist ? so negative and dark are different !?
    pos dark b3 is the classic minor sound (5:6) ?

    is the b3 (6:7) on the chart ?

    is the sus b7 the one you presented @freejazzinstitute in Tonal Number Library - Negative b7 vs Blue b7 ?
    from post #52
    Then on the piano try playing the 6 and b7 together. Notice it's even thicker with complexity, but it can resolve. Especially if you stop the 6.
    is that b7 on the chart too ?

    I have a hard time understanding the x3 and :3 definitions squared on the math-behind chart,
    does it mean x3 is a fifth ascending and/or a fourth descending ?
    :3 is a fourth ascending and a fifth descending ?

    are the connections melodic (sounded successively) and/or harmonic (sounded simultaneously)

    Since we are still connected to the Tonic a simpler or more positive connection can end up being what we really hear.
    when you play and repeat a low drone / tonic like you did in the sound library @freejazzinstitute but what happens if the tonic is only the first / downbeat / beginning note of a phrase ?

    there's a simpler version, the b6.
    the 4 and the b6 are used as building blocks ? just because they are the dual of 5 and 3 that comes from the harmonic serie ?
    the b6 is kinda purple-ish on the chart (whereas the 3 is yellow-ish) ?

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