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Thread: Scale relationship diagram

  1. #31
    Registered User metallidude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    About the whole Spanish Phrygian dispute, one book that I have (its old though and may be outdated) that Spanish Phrygian and Spanish Gypsy are the same scale pattern.

  2. #32
    Bedroom metalurgist LaughingSkull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by adanniels
    phrygian 13
    Never heard of that one. Enlighten me please.
    If you meant phrygian with M6 (1 m2 m3 4 5 M6 m7), than that is already included as dorian b2.

  3. #33
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    sorry about the misconfusion. I was mainly using phrygian as a fill in the blank word. I've heard of ______________13 scales and wanted to know how they fitted into your sheet. I'm learning scales and this chart is really useful.

  4. #34
    Registered User
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    Sep 2007
    I still don't understand how you can use Locrian #2, isn't that juts completely destroying the root?

  5. #35
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Twickenham, UK
    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermute
    I still don't understand how you can use Locrian #2, isn't that juts completely destroying the root?
    First, IMO, "Locrian #2" is better named locrian natural 2, or locrian major 2. I know it's longer, but "#2" implies an augmented 2nd (which you get in the 6th mode of harmonic minor, aka "lydian #2"). Maybe "locrian M2"?

    Anyway, locrian #2 (1-2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7) is often used in jazz over a m7b5 (half-diminished) chord. Ordinary locrian mode (which fits that chord) has a b9, which is considered an "avoid note" - one that sounds awkward against the chord, esp if held. Raise the 9th and it sounds better.
    IOW, it's a "synthetic" scale, invented to solve a problem, rather than a scale used to compose music with.
    It just happens to match a mode of melodic minor, but has nothing to do with that minor key.
    E.g., on Bm7b5, which is the ii chord in the key of A minor, a jazz player might use the D melodic minor scale, which - over a B root - makes B locrian #2. This is despite the fact that the C# seems to negate the essential b3 of the A minor key. (And D melodic minor has nothing to do with the A minor key.)

    BTW, although Bm7b5 is the vii chord of C major, it's almost never used in that key - so the question of the raised 2 (C#) hardly applies.
    However, it's also true that a V chord in a major key might have a raised 4th - which has the same effect.
    Eg (staying with C major), a G7 chord might be played as a lydian dominant: G7#11 = G-B-D-F-C# - there's that C# again. The rule is the same: on a G7 chord, C is an "avoid note"; better (in certain circumstances anyway) to raise it C#, even if it means going out of key.

    Or - more often in fact - the G7 might be played as an altered dom7. The G altered scale is G-Ab-Bb-B-C#-Eb-F (equivalent to 7th mode of Ab melodic minor). Despite all the "wrong notes", this sounds good over a G7 chord and resolves quite neatly to either C major or C minor.
    IOW, having a dissonant V7 chord, raising the tension stakes, is more important than staying in key (provded the dissonance is of a recognised kind). The context and chord function turns "wrong" into "right".

    These choices depend totally on sound - on the sound you want to make - which in turn depends on the type of music one is playing. So the above choices are common conventions in jazz, but might sound really odd in rock. They would certainly be wrong if improvising in folk or blues - unless you wanted to make them sound jazzy.

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