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Thread: what is substitute dominant

  1. #1
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    what is substitute dominant

    Hi

    Just wonder what is substitute dominant? How do we find them .....


    Like Dmaj7 II7 in C major key, what is the possible substitute dominant does it has?

  2. #2
    Jazzman Poparad's Avatar
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    I'm not sure I follow you...

    Are you talking about secondary dominants? In any key, you can precede any chord by it's own V7 chord. For example, in the key of C, take the vi chord, A minor. It's secondary dominant would be E7 (E7 is a dominant 7th chord a 5th above/4th below A) and you might see a chord progression like this:

    | C major | E7 | A minor |

    You can extend the idea to include a series of secondary dominants:

    | C major | A7 | E7 | D7 | G7 | C major |

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poparad
    I'm not sure I follow you...

    Are you talking about secondary dominants? In any key, you can precede any chord by it's own V7 chord. For example, in the key of C, take the vi chord, A minor. It's secondary dominant would be E7 (E7 is a dominant 7th chord a 5th above/4th below A) and you might see a chord progression like this:

    | C major | E7 | A minor |

    You can extend the idea to include a series of secondary dominants:

    | C major | A7 | E7 | D7 | G7 | C major |
    no sorry I mean the one as an example a G7 has a substitute dominant of Db7 because they have the same tritone.

  4. #4
    Jazzman Poparad's Avatar
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    Ok, any time you have a dominant 7th chord that is resolving to it's I chord (V -> I), you can substitute it for the dominant 7th a tritone away. Not only do they share the same tritone between the 3rd and 7th, but if you spell it as a dominant 7th with a b5, all four notes are enharmonic:

    G7(b5) = G B Db F
    Db7(b5) = Db F Abb (G) Cb (B)

    When you have a series of chords moving through the cycle of fourths and you use a tritone sub on a dominant 7th chord, you end up with a chromatic movement of chords:

    Original: | Dm7 | G7 | Cmaj7 |
    Sub: | Dm7 | Db7 | Cmaj7 |


    When you have long series of dominant 7th chords, and then sub every other one, you'll get a nice chromatic series of dominant chords:

    Original: | B7 | E7 | A7 | D7 | G7 |
    Sub: | B7 | Bb7 | A7 | Ab7 | G7 |

  5. #5
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kbundy
    no sorry I mean the one as an example a G7 has a substitute dominant of Db7 because they have the same tritone.
    The tritone substitute is the only case (AFAIK!) where one dominant substitutes for another.

    Not sure what you mean by "Dmaj7 II7 in C major key". Dmaj7 and D7 (which would be labelled "II7") are two different chords. (Dmaj7 = D-F#-A-C#. D7 = D-F#-A-C)
    In key of C, D7 would normally be a secondary dominant for the V (G), and a tritone sub for D7 would be Ab7. (In fact, "V/V" would be a better label for D7 than II7, IMO, making Ab7 "bII/V".)
    But tritone subs don't depend on key: they're always a dom7 a tritone away from the original chord.

    In jazz you sometimes see bVII chords resolving to the tonic (eg, Bb7 to C), but I'm not sure these count as subs for the V7 chord. They're more like extensions of the IVm chord; or borrowed chords from the parallel minor.

  6. #6
    Jazzman Poparad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    In jazz you sometimes see bVII chords resolving to the tonic (eg, Bb7 to C), but I'm not sure these count as subs for the V7 chord. They're more like extensions of the IVm chord; or borrowed chords from the parallel minor.
    Parallel minor is it... sort of. The parallel minor of C major is C minor. The relative major of C minor is Eb major. A ii V I in Eb major is Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj7. If you turn that into a deceptive cadence, i.e. V -> vi, you get Fm7, Bb7, Cm7. 'Borrow' the ii V part of that and put it back into C major, and you get Fm7, Bb7, Cmaj7.

  7. #7
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poparad
    Parallel minor is it... sort of. The parallel minor of C major is C minor. The relative major of C minor is Eb major. A ii V I in Eb major is Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj7. If you turn that into a deceptive cadence, i.e. V -> vi, you get Fm7, Bb7, Cm7. 'Borrow' the ii V part of that and put it back into C major, and you get Fm7, Bb7, Cmaj7.
    Thanks! That's what I was guessing...

  8. #8
    Registered User Dorsey's Avatar
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    Substute a D7 with an F#dim.. is that what this is about? But thats just a substitution, not a dominant substitution, I assume.


  9. #9
    bitter old fool Jed's Avatar
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    I would assume a substitute dominant to mean a tritone substitution, as opposed to a chord substitution for a dominant wich could be many things (min7b5 off the 3rd for a Dom9, maj6 off the root = min7th off the 6th for a Dom7 add13, Dim7th off the 3rd, b5th, b7th or b9th for a dom7b9, etc . . )

    cheers,

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